Collateral

You're listening to They Shoot Films with Ken Mercer and FT.

Kosempa.

Hey there, everybody, and welcome to another episode of They Shoot Films.

My name is Ken Mercer, and I'm joined here, as always, with the great FT.

Kosempa.

FT., how are you today?

I'm doing pretty well today, Ken.

How are you doing?

I'm just trying to relax, take a break to get ready for this podcast.

I'm just sitting here staring at my postcard of the island in the Maldives.

Really?

Is it your like serenity totem?

I had never thought of it that way.

It's just something I stare at to become more serene, but I'd never thought of calling it a serenity totem, but thank you.

You're welcome.

Where did you get this idea?

Thank you for asking.

I got the idea from this episode's film, which is the 2004 film directed by Michael Mann, Collateral.

And yes, I got the idea from the character of Max DeRosier, who was played by Jamie Foxx.

And as he drove the streets of Los Angeles in his cab, he would fold down his visor and stare at the picture postcard of the island and the Maldives as a way to take a break from the grind.

Yes.

It was quite an interesting thing that he gave it away.

He gave it to the character, to the lawyer, to Annie early on.

Thank you, FT., you've thrust us into the heart of the episode.

So I found that was significant when he gave that postcard to Annie.

And it sounds like you did too.

What did you take away from that?

A sign that he was deviating from his routine.

But he was also being a kind man, because he said to her that you need this more than...

She's all stressed out as a prosecuting attorney, all that stuff was established.

But I took it as a real red flag, and also as like, okay, this is not just some sort of love interest on its own.

She's gonna show up somehow, somewhere later in the film.

But yeah, it bugged me for him, because he regretted it in a way.

You can see that.

Don't you agree?

I took it as metaphorical, just as I take my relations with you.

Like holding someone hostage.

Yes.

Yes.

Again, as we said, he had this postcard of the Maldives on his visor, and not only was that his, what did you call it, a serenity?

Serenity totem.

But it was also his objective.

His goal was to start this limousine service called Island Limos.

And I took it even though it wasn't explicitly said, that someday when he had enough money, he would go to an island like this.

And what was significant and metaphorical in my reading of the film was he, and this postcard is so important to him, but he takes a chance, as you said, gives it to Annie as played by Jada Pinkett Smith.

Thank you, FT.

Gives her the postcard.

She in turn then gives him his business cards, and very symbolically.

Her business cards.

Yes, her business cards.

Very symbolically and very importantly, he takes that business card, puts it on his visor in the place, previously held by the postcard, which to my reading in the film showed that he had replaced one goal in life with the other, which was trying to have a relationship with Annie, this woman who also, interestingly enough, if you looked at the advertisement on the roof of the cab, did you happen to notice that?

I did not.

Yes, so it was a Bacardi Silver ad on top of the cab with a woman who looked surprisingly like Annie.

How about that?

Yeah.

It wasn't her, she, it was not she?

It did not seem like she, but certainly suggestive of her.

So we see the character explicitly right before our eyes have one objective goal replaced by another, and spoiler alert, does he achieve his goal at the end of this film, FT.?

Spoiler alert, yes.

Well, spoiler alert, maybe, as is typical, and we're going to be talking, hopefully, I hope we can get into not just this film, but kind of the Michael Mann over, how do you pronounce that again?

Overy, ovary.

The Michael Mann egg.

And I think it's as typical of Michael Mann's films, certainly of his latest, they end in suspension.

There's never a clear, and always kind of characters gazing out, not really clear, usually somebody's dead in the crime films, but not clear that he's gonna have, certainly he's got a good shot with Annie, I would think, but is he gonna marry her, have a real relationship with her?

We do not know.

And so stay tuned for Collateral 2 out next year in theaters near you.

And when he re-incarnates, he's 82 already.

Did you know that?

I did know that.

Michael Mann, yeah, yeah, he's 82.

So, you know, that's interesting what you're saying, because I thought that was the weakest part of the film, was the ending.

And, you know, we've spoken about endings before, and I could tell you where I would have ended it if we get to that point, but yeah.

There's a saying, I like to live my life by FT., those who live in glass houses, and take a look at the endings of our podcast before you start criticizing endings of films.

It doesn't matter.

You can still criticize a film even though you have a shitty ending.

And wait, I want to say one thing.

I want to say one thing.

I'm not necessarily sure that he replaced goals.

You know, the goal of the island might be so internalized, and also, by the way, neglected, you know what I mean, which we'll get into.

You know, he had a second goal.

What didn't you like about the ending?

Why don't we just jump right to the ending and we can wrap up this episode and I can get on with my life?

That would be nice.

Me too.

You know, I didn't like it should have ended with the great shot of Tom Cruise in the MTA, echoing the line that he says in his first cab ride, you know, about why he hates LA.

Yeah.

You know, there's a person, you know, riding in a subway or a train that nobody will notice, and people sit by him and leave, nobody noticed that they've been dead for six hours.

That's where it should have ended.

Otherwise, that just visually, visually, we...

Well, FT., I let you jump the show ahead once already.

That's enough for one episode.

Hold that thought about the line about the MTA, because we're going to get to that one.

Put an asterisk on it.

Okay.

Why don't we get the wheels rolling as we usually do, because we've jumped so far ahead.

Let's jump back, kind of a Christopher Nolan style podcast, and get to kind of the origins of this film just briefly, and then we can dive more into some of the specifics of the film and Michael Mann's ovaries.

So this script actually came from an idea from an Australian, I believe he was Australian.

He now lives in LA.

Stuart Beatty, and he came up with the idea when he was 17 for the movie that became Collateral.

And it kicked around a lot of directors, or several directors were looking at doing it, and then Russell Crowe got attached to play the character that eventually was played by Tom Cruise and Michael Mann.

Sorry, Russell Crowe brought in Michael Mann.

Crowe and Michael Mann had worked together famously on what film, FT.?

The Insider.

Yes, the Insider.

And I always liked these stories in the rough and tumble world of Hollywood where relationships don't last.

I love hearing when an actor wants to work with a director again or vice versa.

So he brings in Michael Mann, he had been developing another project since 1990 that was called The Aviator, which is a biopic about Howard Hughes.

Oh yeah, really?

Yeah.

And then after, and again, I think what's strange is I think Scorsese was supposed to direct collateral.

He was one of the director, there were a lot of directors who got attached to it.

Janusz Kaminski, the director of photography, who I don't know if he's directed anything, was attached as director for a while.

And then, as I said, Russell Crowe came in, suggested Michael Mann.

It came into Michael Mann's desk.

He was working on The Aviator, but he got very excited about jumping on to this project.

BZ had just come off Ali, which was a movie about a boxer.

Have you seen that, FT.?

I heard about it.

You've never seen it?

No, I never saw it.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of biopics.

Yeah, so he had just done a biopic, and as you probably know, the aviator was another biopic, so that was chafing at him a bit.

Plus, Ali was very long.

The aviator was going to be very long before Ali had done The Insider, which was very long and, again, based on reality.

And so he liked Collateral because it was so contained, you know, that it all took place in one night and that it was not based on reality.

He said he saw it, which is an interesting read on the film, if you haven't thought about it.

He said it was interesting because he saw it as just, well, it's only a third act of something.

It jumps in right at the third act, which when you think about it is kind of interesting.

You know, typically, if you were writing this script, it would be, you know, and he would be this prosecutor.

You would have the criminal gang who gets in.

She's building the case against them.

And then the criminals being the bad criminals, they are say, well, we got to we got to hire a hit man to wipe out the witnesses.

So, we get off on, and then in the third act, the hit man would come in and it would start.

But in this film, none of that happens.

And we really don't go back to any of that backstory.

It just picks up with the hit man being hired to wipe out the witnesses.

Right, with a little bit of backstory that's sprinkled in with the Felix business.

Yeah, but we kind of pick it up, we pick it up along the way in this film, we kind of lay this film, what's going on there.

So Mann gets excited, the containment of it one night, the cabs.

And so he calls up Marty Scorsese and offers him the aviator.

And as you know, Marty did take that over and Michael Mann jumped on board collateral.

It took, during the delay, Russell Crowe had another project he wanted to do in Australia, so he dropped out, but Mann stayed with it.

And they had looked at quite a few...

That's too bad, by the way, for me.

What's too bad for you?

That Russell Crowe dropped out.

Okay.

But I did not know that.

And that's interesting because I really admire him as an actor.

He has a lot of color, a lot of variation in his work.

This is Michael Mann's highest grossing film, which I found kind of surprising.

My question for you, FT., is it Michael Mann's best film?

Again, people vote with their dollars.

The Supreme Court has ruled that money is equivalent to speech.

So is this Michael Mann's best film?

No.

But it's a good one.

Okay, I agree with you.

So what is Michael Mann's best film in your opinion?

I like Insider quite a bit.

What's number two?

So is Collateral number two?

I don't know.

I gotta get my list.

And again, one is highest, two would be lower.

What's the, I gotta get my list.

Hit me with the names again.

I like Ferrari, which I just saw the other night.

I did, I liked it.

Yeah.

Latest film.

What about Thief?

I like Thief, but it's not my favorite.

Really?

Okay.

Yeah.

Manhunter.

I think that's an okay film.

Yeah.

So for me, for me, I would put Heat as...

Oh, you said Heat.

You never said Heat.

Heat's good.

Oh, I didn't say it because in the past, we've watched it together.

And we did Heat on, for an old film, Symposium West.

Yeah.

Show.

And I thought you were...

No, I like Heat.

At the time, you were not overly enthusiastic about it.

I mean, you didn't hate it, but you didn't like it as much as I did.

So it's grown on you.

So I think you should watch it again.

Well, I had problems with Al, remember, with Pacino.

Absolutely.

It's a great story.

I mean, you know, never done before in that way, but Pacino is what bothered me.

Okay, so where would you rank Heat above?

Number three.

Behind Collateral?

Oh no, Heat before.

So it would be insider, Heat, and then Collateral.

Okay.

Is the way I would go.

And I would go Heat, insider, collateral, manhunter, thief.

I have a soft spot for manhunter.

I saw it when I first came out.

I don't know why.

I don't think it's.

Well, I saw it when I first came out in a theater in Greenwich Village and it really, it was so different at the time.

And as we get into this discussion and we're going to get there in a second.

You know, Michael, you know, as a genre film, it was, you know, had these expressionist, expressing expressionistic touches and these, you know, these stylistic things.

No, it didn't.

I didn't feel as expressionistic, but was that before or after Silence of the Lambs?

Before.

Refresh my memory.

Before.

It was before.

And it was, it was the book before Silence of the Lambs from Thomas Harris.

Red Dragon.

Red Dragon.

Exactly.

So it's a genre film.

And it's interesting, Be His Heat, which we're just talking about, is what kind of genre film, FT.?

A caper.

Yeah.

So it's the heist film.

And this is the, you know, this is a Hitman film.

And-

Well, he, depending on Michael Mann's objective of it being a genre film, he called it a drama.

He felt the focus was between the two characters.

You know, that's what I felt.

I mean, I know it's a, you know, it's a Hitman film and, you know, it has a genre aspect to it, but, you know, it really moved for me with the relationship between, you know, Max and Vincent, you know.

My take on Michael Mann, whether he admits it or not, he's kind of a Trojan Horse director in that he works, he does these genre films, these very commercial films, but at the same time, they always have a lot more going on, a lot of artistic aspirations, a lot of philosophical arguments going on that he seems to be trying to make, a lot of sociological points he seems to be trying to make, all under this Trojan horse of somebody who might want to go out on a Friday night and see a Tom Cruise hitman film.

And he's done this every...

And obviously in a film like Insider, which is a film about a cause, a message movie, it's more overt.

Although again, even in...

It's interesting.

So when he does a message movie, he brings in a lot of elements of thriller suspense to keep things interesting.

In his genre films, he brings in these deeper messages.

But it's interesting that this idea of these duality, the duality of the characters, kind of these doppelgangers.

And so, for instance, in Heat, you had the Neil McCauley character played by De Niro and the Vincent Hanna character played by Al Pacino.

And there were kind of two sides, as got explored in their scene together at Kate Mantellini, two sides of the same coin.

But one was a criminal, one was the police, but they were both completely dedicated to their respective careers.

And those respective careers made it so neither one of them could really have a life.

In this film, we've got the duality of Vincent, the hitman played by Tom Cruise, and the cab driver played by Max.

Max played by Jamie Foxx.

Oh, yeah, Max played by Jamie Foxx.

And the two of them seem to be opposites in every way, including, as you might have noticed, skin color.

But the French film theorist, John Baptiste Thorey, said something interesting about them.

He said that one is anesthetized and one is paralyzed, which is kind of an interesting read, I think.

It is.

Huh.

So, who's who?

Vincent is anesthetized.

He seems to be devoid of any feelings.

And Max, the cab driver, is paralyzed.

You know, he can't get on.

He's frozen in life.

He seems to have all these aspirations and goals, but he's just completely stuck and paralyzed.

And of course, I think what happens in the course of the film, clearly the conflict between the two of them colliding together, brought together, Vincent breaks Max out of his paralyzation.

He breaks free of that by the end of the movie.

And I think we start to see, although it's very subtle, that Vincent actually starts to develop some empathy and some human connections, although very subtle.

Yes, I don't agree.

I think that his love of jazz and during the club scene, during that hit, that shows that he's not, what was he again?

A nesticide?

No, he's paralyzed.

No, no, Vincent is the nesticized.

He's the void of feelings.

The void of feelings, that's false.

He has feelings, you know, but he just, you know, there are few, few and far between.

He has very compartmentalized feelings, my take on it.

Because you can't love jazz like the, wait, wait, wait.

You can't love jazz the way he does.

You can't.

Well, the jazz thing, I think, and this is what's interesting about Mann's working methods.

I think the jazz thing is programmed in Vincent, and it's not really a feeling.

And again, it comes out of Michael Mann's working methods, which so I don't know if you know this, when Michael Mann does a project like this, let's take this project, for instance, he does these extensive bios on his characters and has photographs of the houses they grew up in and all this research.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because Heat, he wrote a novel which came out, I think, last year, within the last two years called Heat 2.

And that novel is basically just all the backstory that he had developed for Heat that of course never was in the movie.

And he never puts it in the movies, never puts it in the scripts, it's for him.

And he'll share it with the characters.

But he never, it's never overt and it kind of creeps.

What will happen is it kind of that extensive backstory work he does will creep out in weird ways.

So the jazz thing is, I think, programmed and not Vincent's feeling, which came from Vincent's father, who as we know was abusive to him and put him in foster homes, loved jazz.

Right, but this is your feeling.

This is not based on any evidence of seeing notes.

Oh, no, this is a thing that in the back story for Vincent that Mann had worked up was that Vincent's father was a jazz lover and they grew up in Chicago and the jazz clubs, his father loved jazz.

You know, it also kind of again creeps in during the whole, you know, really the first key turning point in the film for the characters for Max is when Vincent insists that Max takes him to the hospital to visit Max's mother.

Yes.

And you'll know what happens directly after they go to visit Max's mother, Frank.

What's the what's the directly after the shaming sequence there, which we're about to talk about?

What does he do that?

And again, he steals the suitcase, he steals the briefcase and runs off.

Wait, wait, wait.

His first rebellion.

And that was my point.

So that meeting with the mother was what would affect it, what really started Max breaking free of his paralyzation.

And what's interesting about that is in that scene, you know, they're in the lobby and...

Flowers?

It's a waste of money, won't we detain her?

She carried you in her womb for nine months.

People buy flowers, buy flowers.

Excuse me.

Keep the change.

And again, I think that's backstory that just creeped in.

I don't think it was overt, which is that, what happened to Vincent's mother?

I don't know what happened.

She died giving birth to him.

She died giving childbirth.

Right, right, right.

And then, according to the backstory notes, that's why Vincent's father was so abusive to him.

He blamed Vincent for the death.

The death of his wife.

His first assassination.

Oh, interesting.

Nice.

Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

Thanks, buddy.

But why don't we, we jumped ahead.

Let's jump back in the Christopher Nolan fashion.

Let me check my tattoo to see where I left off last.

Sorry, that was a memento reference for those who were listening.

Yes.

Nice.

Coming.

So again, this is a Hitman film, but what's interesting about this as a Hitman film, again, is a genre film.

Why are you laughing?

Well, you're just an insist.

Okay.

Yeah, as a genre film, as a genre drama.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I'm not a big fan of Hitman.

First of all, I don't think there are many good Hitman, pure Hitman movies.

I mean, there are a lot of movies that are great with Hitman, and Hitman named Vincent specifically.

Can you name any, Frank?

Zero.

Pulp Fiction, Vincent Vega, as played by John Chavoltis.

So there are great movies with Hitman in them, but the pure...

James Vincent.

Yes, the pure Hitman.

And really, there are novels.

I mean, it's constant in crime fiction, the series with Hitman.

And what's interesting about this is usually how these stories work is you have to empathize with the Hitman.

So what happens is the Hitman always really has to go on.

We side with the Hitman because he's really just out to avenge a wrong.

And the Lee Marvin film Point Blank, which Mann cited as an inspiration for this film, although it's not a Hitman film, is the thing where Lee Marvin's character, Walker, is out on this heist and there's not enough money.

So one of the other criminals kills Lee Marvin, leaves him for dead.

And then, of course, Lee Marvin survives his character.

And he goes on a revenge trip to right the wrong.

And usually these Hitman novels, stories are like that where the Hitman is retired and then they pull him back.

So it's always, the Hitman is not as bad as the other people.

And he's got some motivation that we, as the viewer reader, can empathize with.

This film is completely different because Vincent doesn't get any such empathetic motivation.

He's just out for killing it.

And there's a lot of rationalization, which Hold Your Horses we're going to get to in a bit.

But it's not like he really has any good reason for his killing.

Other than bullshit about taking the garbage out.

Why don't we roll ahead, since we're on the Hitman theme, that kind of brings us into another obsession of Michael Mann's.

It seems to be a through line for what interests him.

It actually came back to a word that you helpfully defined, I think, on the previous episode, which was metier.

Metier, yes, job.

Well, career, profession.

And this is an obsession of Michael Mann's.

Basically, you can look at all his films are about these characters' professions, but especially the crime films.

And there's kind of a through line.

You know, Frank in Thief, not Frank the podcaster, but Frank and Thief, you know, is this incredibly accomplished safe cracker, you know, just the best in his field.

Neil in Heat, again, is just so precise.

And, you know, is the ultimate criminal.

And here we have Vincent as, you know, clearly a hit man with mad skills with a Z at the end, as the kids would like to say.

But how about Max?

What about him?

What about him?

Skills?

Yeah, he's a very meticulous cab driver.

Yes.

You know, he's very-

Cleans his cab.

You know, obsessive about his cabs.

And he can tell you down to the second, how long it's going to take to get across LA, which is a mad skills because, again, the traffic in LA.

So, and of course, that's kind of Max's undoing, unless you think it's a happy ending for Max, that the events of this film have broken free of his paralyzation.

But it's only because of his mad skills that Vincent gloms on to him.

When Vincent's in the cab and asks him, how long is it going to take to get to the first stop?

And I think Max says...

Seventeen minutes or something like that.

I think he says, right, it was, I think he says, I thought it was seven.

And Vincent says, seven, huh?

Not six, not eight.

And so Vincent is drawn to Max's precision and then says, I want you to stay with me for the rest of my night, which of course draws Max into this spiderweb.

Right, but it wasn't just his desire, it was after the first hit, that Max got, it necessarily had to be there, because he became a witness.

It then became hostagy at that point, when the body falls on the cab, and I have to deal with that.

No, again, talking about professionalism and incompetence, I don't mean to question yours, although it's going to seem like I am.

Before the body falls on the camp, which obviously then there's a point, a complete point of no return.

Before that, at the first stop, Vincent says, Oh, the 600 bucks, okay.

Yeah, I want to keep you for the rest of the night.

Max, of course, being the meticulous professional, he says, No, that's against regulation, sorry.

Right.

And Vincent comes up with so much money.

And again, the reason he does, you know, 600 bucks, and it was very cool the way he somehow splayed out the six bills like a card shark.

And then says, and 700, if you get to me to the airport without, if I can make my flight without running.

And that's, you know, and again, the reason Vincent does this is he says, Wow, Max is, this is going to be a good cab driver to get me through my night in LA.

Question, is this movie rendered irrelevant?

You know, are kids today, the kids who say mad skills, if kids actually do say-

They don't say that anymore, do they?

I don't think so.

The kids in 86 used to say it.

But would young people today even be able to get this film, because taxis are kind of antiquated.

Now they'd be like, I don't get it.

Why didn't he just call an Uber?

Why is he doing this with a cab?

Would they even be able to remake?

Yeah, but it would be the same thing.

You could do a remake with an Uber and have the same thing going on.

Right, no, I know you could do it as a remake, but would kids with a Z at the end today be able to really get this as it is?

Yes, with two S's.

Would they know what those things are that Vincent and at the end member Max grabs something from somebody and flips it open and makes a call and the battery goes dead?

Would people know what that, would kids know what that object is today?

Yes, they would know it's a phone with a battery that went dead.

Okay.

Because the guy's talking into it.

They would figure they would be able to conclude.

But I hear what you're saying in that little dig about competence before, but that's one thing to make the offer.

And as I recall, speaking of competence, Max doesn't really agree.

He takes the money.

But at any point, it was unclear to me, but my point was that it got sealed and it became, instead of an offer, it became a hostage.

Yes.

No, clearly, there's no point in no return, as I said.

But again.

And then helping him put the body in the trunk.

Spoilers, spoilers, spoilers.

That was cooperation, the first act.

When we kind of jump right there, because one point I wanted to make, and it gets to this scene where the first hit, where the body comes crashing down on the car, that Vincent's precision, and he's precise in everything.

Physically, the way he can draw a gun, the way he talks.

As we learned from the end of the film, his idle conversation with Max is not, especially at the beginning, is in no way, it's all about extracting information that Vincent needs to make a decision about Max and how to manipulate him, and should he be his cab driver.

But his precision also, I found interesting, extends to the rhetorical.

Would you agree?

Yes.

Thank you, thank you.

As an example.

Okay, so this body comes crashing down on Max's cab from the building, and then when he sees Vincent, Max looks at him and says, you killed him?

And Vincent says, no, I shot him.

Bullets in the fall killed him.

Yes.

It's an interesting, as a piece of screenwriting, it's interesting because I think it works, it does triple duty.

It's three minutes in one, as the certs people used to say.

And I think those three things are, as we already talked about it, it serves to show Vincent's precision in speech.

Yes.

Two, it's just a great, for the audience, it's a great memorable line.

Yes.

And three, as you pointed out, and we're going to talk about later, it does illuminate, it shows us Vincent's sociopathy, that he literally, I think, just like in a podcast we did a while ago, I think Marathon Man, that I read you that quote about the doctor of death, the angel of death standing on the train station at Auschwitz, whose son said, well, no, he didn't think he killed anybody, he was just...

Right.

And so I think for Vincent...

Categorizing, he was just categorizing.

And so I think for Vincent, he really thinks, it's the bullets that killed the guy, you know?

It was the bullets that killed the guy, and he's right.

The bullets in the fall, yes.

That's a crazy thing, and the fall, yes.

He just shot him, point blank in the chest and in the forehead.

I'll tell you what, since we're here, why don't we talk about Vincent's dissociation and his sociopathy?

We're here.

Go ahead, go ahead.

Okay.

Go ahead.

No, I just said it, so he's an associate and an sociopath.

Well, that thought gets developed further.

You know, Max is very upset about seeing a person killed, and he's going on and on about it, and Vincent's like, you're upset about one fat guy?

What about Rwanda?

You know, more people died there in one day than, you know, in this.

And then, you know, I think in a later speech, he then rolls it out even further.

He's like, you know, what do these deaths really matter?

We're just specks on this one planet and this vast, vast universe.

Right, the nihilism there.

You know what I mean?

Because for him, this is like the sort of the existential vein, you know, of the Camus side, that it's all absurd, you know, where there's no clear sign about what the meaning of life is, there's no clear sign about whether God exists.

And so we're just, you know, we're less than nothing.

We're specks on specks, you know, and that's the emptiness inside.

And of course, this is the slippery slope, and that's why I never have read any philosophy, you know, because I think philosophy is a slippery, you know, because all these serious, it's like Manson, you know, they use philosophy, and then they use it as a way to rationalize killings.

And that's why, you know, with you, as someone who's studied philosophy, I'm much more comfortable with you being, you know, on the other side of the country.

I don't trust you.

So you use, you don't use philosophy to rationalize your ignorance?

Correct, yes, well said.

Yes, well, emphatically, yes.

You know, the other existential aspect of Vincent is like, you know, there's two sides, there's SART too, you know, with emphasis on freedom, emphasis on responsibility, and emphasis on choice.

And I'm sure we're going to talk about that because...

Yes, we are, we're going to talk about choice.

That's coming up in another 70 minutes in the...

Yes, no, but I think, I think the SART thing was not subtle in this film.

And I think it was overt, you know, when in the parking garage, or when they're in the parking lot, and they cut to that big sign, no exit.

Right.

Is that true?

No, I just meant that.

No.

Don't ask me, I don't read for a lot.

I miss a Bacardi.

But, sorry, there was another...

I bet you there was a no exit, I'll go searching through the film.

But there was a great, another great line in there, which was, you know, the Vincent says, you know, again, when Jamie Foxx is like, you killed, you know, you killed someone, how can you do that?

And Vincent throws back at him.

Did you join Amnesty International, Oxfam, Save the Whales Greenpeace or something?

No.

Here, look, here's the deal.

And you were gonna drive me around tonight and never be the wiser, but El Gordo got in front of a window, did his high dive.

We're in plan B.

Still breathing?

Now we gotta make the best of it.

Improvise, adapt to the environment, Darwin, shit happens, Yi Qing, whatever, man, we gotta roll with it.

Yi Qing, what are you talking about?

You threw a man out of a window.

I didn't throw him.

He fell.

But what did he do to you?

What?

What did he do to you?

Nothing.

I only met him tonight.

You just met him once and you kill him like that?

What, I should only kill people after I get to know them?

No.

Max, there's six billion people on the planet you're getting bent out of shape because of one fat guy.

Well, who was he?

What do you care?

Have you ever heard of Rwanda?

Yes, I know Rwanda.

Well, tens of thousands killed before sundown.

Nobody's killed people that fast since Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Did you bat an IMAX?

What?

Did you join Amnesty International, Oxfam, Save the Whale Greenpeace or something?

No.

I offer one fat Angelino and you throw a hissy fit.

Man, I don't know any Rwandans.

You don't know the guy that trunked either.

Gabe, it makes you feel any better he was a criminal.

Involved in a continuing criminal enterprise.

What are you doing?

You just taking out the garbage?

Yeah, sounds like it.

Pull over to the right.

FT., we've talked quite a bit about Vincent.

Why don't we, in terms of equal time, why don't we talk about Max, as played by Jamie Foxx for a while.

So, any opening thoughts on Max?

Well, first off, Jamie Foxx played him the entire time.

You said Max was played by Jamie Foxx for a while.

And I was like, what?

Oh man, I know I'm having...

Oh no, wait, you know about what happened.

They switched, he switched, right?

No, they didn't switch, but he was critically injured in that car, when he crashed the cab.

So he didn't, he did not...

No, he did not finish the film.

Shut up.

No.

Is this real?

Is this true?

I mean, they did crash, you know, that early crash, you know, where he side swiped the cars.

Tom Cruise was freaking out because Jamie Foxx did it, you know, apparently, yes.

Yes.

But let's talk about Max, please.

Shall I start?

Well, yeah, of course.

You know, tell me what, you know.

Oh, you want me to say something so you can disagree with it?

Or fortify it with facts.

Yes.

And philosophy.

Yes.

Thoughts.

Yes.

So one thought I had is, you know, Max, we talked about him being paralyzed in the world.

Words of Jean Baptiste Thoret.

Was that his name?

Sorry, if I'm butchering my hand.

I don't see the spelling.

I saw Max.

There was a lot of metaphorical stuff.

I don't know what happened to me.

You know, I remember last episode, I told you I was in a bike accident in FT.

Do you remember that?

Yes, of course I remember that.

Yes, and ever since then, I see everything in metaphorical terms.

No head injury.

No head injury.

I don't think I have a head, but seriously, I see everything as being metaphorical.

You don't know if you didn't have a head, it's a sign of a head injury.

I didn't think I had one.

No, but I am worried, and I go to Kaiser for my health care, and so to get an appointment, you have to like fill out, you know, you make your appointments online, and I tried to get an appointment, and you have to fill out, you know, what are your symptoms, and I put in that, you know, the concern that I had a bike accident, and I was now seeing everything in metaphorical terms, and they said they would get back to me on the first available appointment date, and that was like a week ago, and so I don't know what's going on.

Anyway, so I see metaphorically, I see Max as a turtle, and I see, sorry, again, I got in an accident, so cut me some rope here.

Is a turtle in a hair?

No, no, Max is a turtle.

The taxi cab is Max's protective shell, and his shell first gets shattered by the falling Angelino who shatters his windshield, and obviously, again, that fall, as you pointed out, is really not the inciting incident of the film, but the kind of point of no return, a significant point there.

Yes, yes.

And then following on to this analogy, that's the first crack in the shell, and then we see him again taking more agency, taking more action after the visit with his mother, and real turning in the nightclub with Javier Bardem, but then his big action, you know, his big decision, his big improvisation, is to crash the cab.

Yes.

And which is interesting because when he crashes the cab, literally we see him crawling out of his shell after the crash.

And then...

Nice one, nice.

Well, I think I've one more here.

And then, yeah, no, sorry, that was it.

And then he runs slowly.

Yeah, right, exactly.

Good one, FT.

That was it.

So he emerges from that cat, his turtle shell.

Very interesting.

Yeah, I like that.

I saw him differently.

I just saw him as sort of an embodiment of basically enslavement, you know, and the social structures of enslavement, you know, where he is so stunned by what's going on by the moment to moment that you really don't get the big picture here that, wait a minute, you just witness a death.

You know, you are now, you know, in trouble, you know, that you're going to, you know, your life is on stake, you know, but you're so worried about what's going on, you know, that eventually, you know, things do happen where he has a couple of rebellions, you know, and the first one was, as you said, at his mother's hospital, we were stealing a briefcase, and the second rebellion is the choice of taking the chance.

Yeah, so I just, I saw Max as being, you know, sort of a cross between, you know, Nat Turner and, you know, the Warsaw Uprisers, you know, with the exception that he lives, you know.

And again, getting back to my existentialism point, you know, his chance was either live or die.

And an act that's potentially suicidal, it could be an act of freedom, you know.

Right.

That he was, he could not continue going this way.

You know, and the existentialists say suicide is terrible because of, you know, it negates freedom.

Yes, and Larry Gilbert on the show, runner of MASH said, suicide is painless.

It brings on many changes.

That's ridiculous.

Okay.

Suicide can be painless, you know.

Yeah.

So you clearly, your reading, which is my reading, FT., is that Jamie, that Max's choice to crash the cab, he was choosing to kill Vincent and himself, correct?

That was the move?

No.

Oh, okay.

That was, that was my way.

Yeah, no.

Wait, so you thought he's...

It's a choice of, it's a trace of chance.

I mean, I think he was going to take the chance of either way, because for me, you know, Vincent's talking all this nihilistic stuff about what does it matter?

What does it matter?

You know?

And Vincent does midwife him in a way of like getting him to realize that, as Vincent says, all he had to do is put a down payment on a Lincoln town car.

You know, you've been just like, you know, and Jamie Foxx, you know, Max agrees, he goes, I've been wasting all this time, you know, gambling away, you know, with bullshit.

Right.

You know, so I don't think it was like an intention to, you know, he was going to take the chance of take either outcome.

Okay, I'll buy that.

He dies, you know.

I'll buy that.

Yeah.

Either outcome was what he, you know, it was, and that was, you know, for me, that's an act of freedom.

It was amazing to me, you know.

Yes.

Tom Cruise said that, you know, Michael Mann, who is, you know, involved in every aspect of filmmaking, every detail of it, Cruise said it was Michael Mann who did, you know, picked his Vincent's wardrobe, picked his hair and picked his beard.

How do you think-

Not his nose.

I'm sorry.

I even picked his nose method, method directing.

How did you feel the gray hair worked for Vincent?

It was fine.

Yeah.

No, I thought it worked, but it's a big deal because Year of the Dragon, the Michael Cimino film with Mickey Rourke, where Mickey Rourke has silver hair.

It looks so frigging fake.

Whose does?

Mickey's or Tom's?

No, by Michael Cimino's.

No, no, no, Mickey, Mickey, Mickey.

The turtles, the turtles hair.

No, I didn't know there were hairy turtles.

No, Mickey Rourke's hair in Year of the Dragon looks so fake, whereas this, you know, and I think there's, well, maybe Rourke was younger at Year of the Dragon than Cruise is here, but, you know, I buy Cruise with that silver hair in this film.

How much did you buy him for?

Boom, boom, boom.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, though, that I knew a person with, you probably have met people with prematurely graying hair, that they may be in their 30s, and their hair is white, right?

I know two people, actually, in my life.

One person with the, you know, confusing name of Whitey.

So, you know, you go like, what's your nickname for?

You know, anyhow.

Yeah, it's a personal story.

This is an impersonal story.

Well, I find those stories quite as interesting as my own stories.

When I started my advertising agency, I think I was 25 years old when I started it, and I felt very uncomfortable looking so young.

And so I went to the to the hair cutter and said, I want gray hair.

And he said, why are you laughing?

This has such a sound of truth to it.

It's unbelievable.

What did your hair cutters say?

No, this is true, FT.

Come on, man.

Oh, I'm sorry, man.

I hurt your feelings.

I can tell.

All right.

So you went to the hair cutter.

Yes.

And I said-

With a rabbi and a priest.

Right.

No.

No, and I said, I want gray hair.

And he said, it's not easy to give you gray hair.

First, I would have to strip, I would basically have to bleach your hair completely colorless.

Then I could put in gray and you'd have to keep coming back constantly to keep it gray.

Is this the truth?

This is the truth.

Okay.

Why would I make this up?

I'm telling you, it's not even.

I don't know.

No.

So again, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is, it should not be understated the work of the hair people on collateral to make Tom Cruise with silver hair look believable.

Work.

It worked.

Make it look.

And again, kudos to Tom Cruise for allowing them to dye his hair.

Kudos.

Yes.

Max's real turning point where he starts to break out his paralyzation really becomes evident in the hospital room with his mother.

And it's interesting that that's where his awakening begins.

In that hospital room, it's very interesting.

And again, when you think about this script, first of all, let's talk about the script briefly.

Let me ask you a series of questions.

Do you think this is a good script, FT.?

Yes.

Absolutely.

Do you think this is a tight script, FT.?

Absolutely, yes.

Do you think there's a lot of stuff in the script that's just there for no particular reason?

In the script that's there for no particular reason?

No.

There's things that you might think is there for no particular reason, like the Jazz Club.

I really bought the idea that, oh, this is going to be a buddy-buddy take a break.

I was surprised.

I wasn't totally surprised, but I was surprised that that ended up being a hit, that it was the trumpeter.

I was.

Okay, but...

Here's why I hate to ask you questions, because you never friggin answer them directly.

So basically, you have just admitted that it's a good script.

There's not stuff in the script for no particular reason, right?

I'm not going to answer you.

Okay.

You're taking the fit.

Yes, yes, yes.

There's things in the film that are there for...

There's some filler bullshit.

There's songs, there's MTV land.

As your attorney, here's what I advise you to say, Frank.

Just say, I take the fifth on the grounds that it may make it look like Ken was correct.

Just say that.

Oh, Jesus.

No, you're right.

It's a pretty tight script for you though.

I'm sorry, and I would just like to add here that this script, which is Stuart Beatty has the sole screenwriting credit, clearly, I would say, Michael Mann...

This is the first movie that Michael Mann ever did that he didn't write the script for.

Right.

But clearly, he had to work on the script, and again, hats off to Michael Mann for not trying to horn in on a credit and just gave it to the screenwriter.

But so the turning point, so that hospital room scene, which again, you would think in the plot of the movie, does not need to...

That rung doesn't need to either.

Yes, that's what I meant.

Other than to give, to allow Jamie Foxx to throw the briefcase off the bridge.

But you could have just done that.

He could have just stopped the taxi cab, you know, screeching brakes, got out, run off with the briefcase, thrown it off the bridge.

So that hospital scene there is for a reason, and it's for a big reason.

That's where we first start to see Jamie Foxx break out of his shell.

And it's interesting because the motivation, it seems like the motivation, what finally gets Jamie Foxx to start moving is Jamie Foxx's mother...

Yes.

Gravitates towards Vincent.

Yes.

You know, you see it happen.

She likes, it's sibling rivalry in that room.

The mother likes Vincent better than...

You know, you can tell his whole life with Jamie.

You know, you can tell he's a mama's boy, right?

He goes to the hospital every fucking day.

If he's 10 minutes late, she's going to call him.

She, you know, he's got to tell her, he's got a limo business because, you know, he wants her to be proud of him.

And in spite of all that, in two seconds, mama likes mama Ida as she's known.

Likes Vincent much better, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, all right, all right, hold on here though.

But, you know, that just shows how much of a hypocrite she is.

You know, she's going to be, you know, kind and courteous to this important guest, remember?

Or an important customer, you know?

Yeah, I get the whole idea, the sibling.

Wait, wait, wait, Ken, Ken.

Okay, a courtesy and not interrupting.

I found her to be a hypocrite and to be shaming, you know?

That's what I feel the motivation is that, you know, Jamie Foxx, Max was shamed than when she let the cat out of the bag about, you know, having the limo business.

I don't think she's a really nice person, because remember when they finally get into the cab, you know, Vincent goes on and on about parents projecting their shit on to your kids, you know what I mean?

And I think, and the second thing that I think happens in that scene is, it shows that Vincent does have feelings, that he does want to have, you know, respect the mother that he never had, you know, just to address that point early on.

So sibling rivalry, I felt Vincent, too, was a bit of the Eddie Haskell, oh, I'm gonna be sweet here, because I'm a fucking bastard, I'm gonna kill your son.

Well, Frank, cut him some break.

Even the mother says, he never does anything unless you hold the gun through his head.

That's what I was just thinking, what the hell did I say, exactly.

But again, which was a great line.

But again, in terms of the character development, I think that's the only time you see Vincent really, his humanity come up is in these program, the deep-seated parental stuff, having to do with his mother, his father, that's when these things come out.

But why don't we, FT., if we can't, now that you said I was right, I would like to jump ahead on that note.

Why don't we discuss some specific scenes from the film, starting with the opening cab rides.

There's two opening cab rides, one with Max picking up Annie, and a second cab ride with Max picking up Vincent.

Your thoughts?

About the Annie scene, I did like the sort of romantic set up, the love interest, the witty banter.

It disclosed character of Max.

Max is observant.

He can tell from her dress what she does, the way she spoke on the phone.

And he can flirt pretty well.

And with the whole joking about the bedding, when she says, well, he makes a couple of jokes, another one of these ironic ones.

If you just listen to me, we would be all bogged down in traffic right now.

You would have made yourself an extra five bucks.

Yeah, when you get that five bucks, buy you something special.

Go wild.

It's not that big deal.

Not the big deal.

How many cabbies do you know get you into an argument to save you money?

There were two of us.

I had to kill the other one.

I don't like competition.

How do you like being a lawyer?

What are you, psychic?

Little bit.

There's the dark pen and striped suit, elegant, not too flashy, that rules out advertising, plus a top drawer briefcase that you live out of, and the purse, a bodega.

Anyway, a man gets in my cab with a sword, I figure he's a sushi chef.

You, Clarence Darrow.

Well, no, not quite.

He works defense, I'm a prosecutor.

Big case?

A lot of personality there, and now when I think about it, it's sort of like diminished when Vincent comes in in the second scene, you know, when Vincent does show up.

Well, not diminished.

He doesn't like Vincent, actually.

Well, no, it's so, again, it's a good script, it's well-directed, and it's made overt because what happens, again, what Max says to Annie is when she says, how long is it going to take to get there, he says, and she says, if you don't get me there in that time, what are you going to do?

And he said, I'll give you a free ride.

When Vincent gets into the cab, how long is it going to take to get there, blah, blah, blah.

And Vincent says, well, if you don't get me there, how about the ride's free?

And Max says, nope, I already did that once.

You already did that.

So it's very overt, but what I wanted to talk about was, my concerns about the two cab rides are cinematic in nature, which I thought might be appropriate for a podcast about cinema.

Okay.

But can I back up when you say the first scene, because this film is really disturbing, unlike Heat and unlike other stuff.

The opening stuff in LAX is some of the worst cinematography I've ever seen in my life for, and particularly for a Michael Mann film.

And the compression.

You know my whole problem with telephoto compression.

No, I did, okay.

Everything slapped, close up, close up, close up, close up.

And I'm shocked.

I'm shocked with Michael Mann.

I figured you were going to say, and again, I didn't want to go there.

But again, why the telephoto in the airport, sorry, what F.T.'s talking about in the opening airport scenes, the scenes of Vincent are all shot with very long lens.

And close ups, yeah.

Yeah.

And was it for a reason, FT.?

The only reason I can think of is that it made his transition easy because he then started doing detailed shots of meaningless things.

Wait, wait, don't interrupt.

Or you're gonna say no, that I'm wrong.

No, yeah, I didn't.

But what actually happened was it eased the transition from the airport to the garage.

Because if you have things that are mechanical things, close ups, details, you can make a shift where you're going, what is that, what is that, what is that?

Until you get to the garage, that's one thing.

So it helped the editing.

But I have no idea why because even the long shots were shot in telephoto except for the helicopter at the beginning.

No, I mean, I think it was a deliberate decision on...

Yeah, it was terrible.

No, I disagree because what happens when you watch, you watch an airport with all these people all over, they're insignificant.

Everybody's a blur except for Vincent.

Well, that sounds like rationalization of shitty photography.

I mean, you're going to spice it up with symbolic meaning.

Okay.

I'm sure people will agree with you, but I don't.

Okay.

Again, we all have our own biases and you hate long lenses.

So you saw the long...

And that's why when I saw it, I was like, oh, Frank's going to hate the long lenses.

But then when I watch what Michael Mann, was a deliberate and I think a good choice to use a long lens there because again, you look at those scenes, the mass of people are blur and again, it's Vincent's world view about I hate this city, everything's disconnect, blah, blah, blah.

It's Vincent and everybody else is just a blur.

So I like the long lens choice on that.

But that's just me.

Well, it is just you.

It's grainy and ugly too.

I can see the reason for it, but I think you could get the same thing differently.

And you're going to bring up that this is also a test run of video, right?

Yes.

When I was first looking at that, it is so grainy.

And so I was like, this was the first major motion feature film to be shot on digital.

And digital was not ready for prime time.

The sensors were tiny, tiny sensors.

He calls it high def, but it basically just barely qualified as high def.

And so when I was looking at the airport scene and the grain, I was thinking it was because of the video, but they did shoot some things on 35.

And so I think that might have actually been shot on 35.

Maybe he was pushing the grain to make it match the video.

My comment, though, on the video, it's interesting with the bad cameras, the bad sensors, I actually didn't mind this film when I saw it in the theater.

I didn't realize it was video, but it's interesting that I think three years later, David Fincher's Zodiac came out, which was shot on video.

I saw that in this theater in Corte Madera, which was the theater that George Lucas had outfitted for the Star Wars films.

And so it was state of the art sound, huge screen, great projection.

And I saw Zodiac there, and I thought it looked terrible.

I've come to like the way it looks on the smaller screen.

Collateral, three years earlier, the first film, I actually think it looks pretty damn good.

Oh, I agree.

And I think the reason it looks good is Mann didn't try to make it look like film.

He went to video because he wanted to capture this LA at Night thing, and he makes the video look like, I mean, the noise, it's all low light.

The cinematographers talk about, they knew he wanted things lighted minimally, but then he would show up on set and say, no, pull this light, pull this light.

And so he gave it a look, which I like.

Oh, so did I.

I mean, I just think there were points of it that, you know, it was cinematography and shot selection.

I think some of the stuff in the cab, you know, between both Vincent and Max and Annie and Max, it's just so weirdly shot also.

I think with Annie and Max, it looks like they're two inches away from each other.

That was my point.

I was, thank you, thank you, FT.

That was the point I was getting to when I said-

My point about the two cab arrives was cinematic in nature.

So interesting the way Michael Mann did the shot.

So with Annie, all the cameras are inside the cab.

And so, and then as they start, you know, as he flirts with her, they start to get, you know, he moved, you know, they're in, they're in separations, one shots, but everything's in the cab.

And then as they start to know each other, there's two shots.

As you said, they move closer.

That's interesting.

But then Vincent gets into the cab and boom, the cameras are all outside the cab, shooting through the window, you know, and everything, and I was like, wow, that's crazy.

They had to dub the sound.

So it's all external looking in and they're all, and Vincent and Max are completely separated.

It's all one shots in that opening sequence.

So I, again, I thought...

Well, there's some two shots, I mean, for variety.

They come in later.

And so, again, Michael Mann, you know, very deliberate in terms of his use of camera angles.

Okay.

Interesting bookends in those opening cab ride scenes, I thought, in some of the dialogue, because each of the cab rides had dialogue that foreshadowed the character's ending.

So, Max, in the first cab ride with Annie makes this bet, you know, I'll get you there in this time.

You know, what happens if you don't get me there?

Well, cab ride is free.

He makes it in time.

And she complements, wow, I can't believe you made it, blah, blah, blah.

What does he say, FT.?

I forget.

He says, I got lucky with the lights.

And of course, what's the ending of the film?

He gets lucky with the subway lights go out and it allows him to prevail in a gun fight with a hitman.

Now, the second bookend in the cab ride with Vincent.

What does Vincent talk?

He gets in the cab, I hate this town.

Everybody's separated.

First time in LA?

To tell you the truth, whenever I'm here, I can't wait to leave.

I was sprawled out, disconnected.

That's me.

You like it?

It's my home.

17 million people.

This is going to be the fifth biggest economy in the world and nobody knows each other.

I read about this guy who gets on the MTA here.

He dies.

Six hours he's riding the subway before anybody notices.

His corpse doing laps around LA, people on and off sitting next to him.

Nobody notices.

And how does Vincent come to an end?

Um, in that very way?

Yeah, exactly.

So I thought, interesting bookends.

Yes, it is.

It is.

It is.

Yes.

Why don't we move on?

Why don't we move on to the El Jazzo Clubo?

Um, otherwise known as the Jazz Club.

Okay.

Contrary to what you've been saying, sort of, you know, what the scene did for me was that, you know, the question is, is Vincent a soulless bastard?

Is he soulless?

And so as I've been arguing, and you don't really agree to love music in this kind of way, in this kind of detail, it shows that, you know, he's not soulless.

There's something there.

If you have a sense of beauty, we know he has a sense of truth, of being precise, you know.

Morals, not so much, but to have beauty, those are the big three, that's a sign of soul.

Okay, Frank.

But is he soulless, though?

Well, FT., you, and again, I hate to argue with you, but that's what I get paid for here on this podcast.

You're arguing that he's this lover of jazz, and that shows you, what makes you, what demonstrates that he's a lover of jazz?

Vintage.

His look.

Who was, his delight.

His delight, his delight?

Yes, his delight in listening to the music, and even though he does a sadistic thing to the trumpeter, who was a...

Trumpeteer, trumpeteer.

The three Trumpeteers, Miles, this guy.

Even though, you know, he's a sadistic baster, he answers, you know, the questions, the question, you know, where did, who educated Miles, or how did Miles get educated?

Miles Davis.

He shoots them any how, but he gently catches his head, because he has respect for the man as a musician, right?

And by the way, this continues outside.

There's another read on that, FT., and informed by a lot of, you basically, as a hitman, when you shoot something like that, you need to catch their head, lest their head bounces, hits the table, and pops the bullet free, and then they live.

Right.

See, I don't watch enough hitman movies, right?

It'd be like, come out of the other side of his head.

You've seen those movies where guys get shot in the head, and when they go over to the wall and start pounding their head against the wall.

It's like when you get your clogged ears from swimming, you bang your head to get the, pop the bullet out.

Why don't we quickly just jump to the taxi crash scene where Max makes his big choice that we've already talked about, and crashes his car into, I forget what they call those things, but anyway, launches the car into a spinning roof over wheels crash.

Your thoughts?

Wheels over roof crash.

What did I say?

Yes, roof over wheels.

That's no crash, that's normal driving.

Well, it's spinning, spinning.

Spinning, spinning wheels.

I'm surprised he didn't dub some music in there, but honestly, I couldn't believe that anybody could walk away from that crash.

I can name one person, at least one person, who walked away from almost that exact same crash.

Who?

What are you talking about?

The stunt driver who did that crash, walked away unscathed.

You're right.

Yes.

Like Joey Chitwood Jr.

in, what was that movie?

Billy Freak and Sorcerer.

Sorcerer.

Yeah, it's the beginning of that.

A similar crash, by the way.

But seriously, it is a very impressive crash scene.

Yes.

And particularly the way it comes up.

I mean, because there's a tension there.

Remember?

He's like, what are you doing?

What are you doing?

And you're speaking of red lights.

He's running the lights.

He's barreling.

I held onto my chair, Ken.

But just forgetting the film and how it plays in the screenplay, the idea of the crash, just technically, an incredibly well-done, well-choreographed crash.

Yes.

How many takes?

One take only.

Oh, yeah.

Well, it's not the kind of thing you really can do too many takes of.

But obviously, a multi-camera set up.

And hats off to Mann.

The cameras seem to be in great places.

And obviously, you've got to be careful where you place your cameras, because they can get totaled by the crashing car.

But also, hats off to that stunt driver who was in that car.

I mean, you see the way that car...

And again, it was not edited.

There's footage out there on YouTube of the actual crash, unedited, and in the making of stuff for this film, you can see the unedited...

That car just hits the ramp that flips it, and just high speed tumbles down that road.

And somehow comes to a stop before...

They weren't on a set.

Those were real...

I forget if they were outside the Staples Center, or where they were at that point.

Did not crash into stores or anything else.

It was contained, and it was a lucky shot.

In other words, right?

Well, I think it was a skillful shot.

I'm sure they had luck involved.

They had barricades there that I probably couldn't see.

Yeah, of course, but it didn't explode either.

Again, hats off to that stunt driver.

Hats off.

How many hats we have?

And I just want to explain to the studio audience that, yes, you can't do two takes with the same car after you crash it.

Yes.

I just wanted to clarify that before.

When you said you can't do more than one take, and I went true.

Well, not you right now.

Unless you have more than one car, then you can do it.

Yes, I'm sure they had more than one car, but I'm sure they did too.

They were ready.

And again, sorry, hats off to Michael.

This is my final.

I just pulled off my last one.

My final hat of the nine hats.

There's only one left.

Hats off to Michael Mann, who after that take said, print it.

Well, he doesn't say, I think we talked about it back with the Naked Kissed podcast, which if you haven't listened to all of them, you should go back and listen to that one.

You got it?

Yeah.

Sam Fuller had his.

Sam Fuller.

Directors all have their unique way of saying they've got the shot.

Michael Mann just sticks up his thumb to show that he's ready to move on.

Hats off to, no hats left, but speaking figuratively, not literally, hats off to Michael Mann for after getting that shot, saying that's enough, we don't have to do it again because Michael Mann is like David Fincher and Stanley Kubrick does a lot of takes.

I did not know that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He does a lot of takes.

Right.

That's why I loved the digital, too, because he wasn't limited to three minutes.

Well, no, he said he knew.

Yeah, right.

400 feet, 400 feet, 35-millimeter.

Yeah, three and a half minutes.

Yes.

It's getting dark here.

It gets dark, as Yogi Berk once said, it's starting to get late early these days.

So we should move to the end here.

I thought, you know, we teased and we said we would get to Mr.

Tom Cruise and his performance.

I have some thoughts.

You said you were going to have contradictory thoughts.

So let the battle begin.

Okay.

I have an idea for time sake.

You have your thoughts and we can imagine the opposite.

Go ahead.

Okay.

I may say something, but go ahead.

No, you should buy all me.

Say things throughout.

My first thing is I would say, well, first of all, I'm no Tom Cruise super fan.

Okay.

So let that be said at the beginning.

But I have to say, I have to say, I am a Tom Cruise mega fan.

No, no, I'm not a big Tom Cruise fan, but I have to say there is something I really, and not specific to Tom Cruise, I love seeing a movie star with a capital S get a meaty role, where we can see them do something special.

Another example, George Clooney, as the French call him.

They do.

I think, wouldn't they?

And they say, Mr.

George Clooney.

Clooney.

George Clooney.

So I've seen George Clooney get it.

Clooney, you're into the doing.

Who's a movie star get a meaty role.

And by the way, Clooney's path as a movie star, which we're gonna talk more about in a second, has been to take more meaty roles than Chris has been the action hero.

But I would say, and this is what I was kind of teasing at the beginning, I think, you know, you said, oh, I want Russell Crowe.

Well, actually, if we played back the tape, you were saying, I want Russell Crowe.

I want Russell Crowe.

I want Russell.

You know, you threw a tantrum.

There's a baby.

The biggest baby.

I don't think this movie works without Tom Cruise.

It doesn't work nearly as well because the movie star baggage that Tom Cruise brings to this role that Russell Crowe doesn't quite have is important.

The audience, like I said, usually these Hitman films, we have the audience's empathy with the Hitman because they're doing, you know, they've been wronged.

We're with them to get their revenge or, you know, they killed their wife or whatever.

Since Vincent doesn't have this, the likeability that Tom Cruise just instantly brings to the picture.

For most people who don't like Tom Cruise, like FT.

Kosempa, I think is incredibly helpful to make this movie work.

So it's an extra acting feature.

It's his fame.

It's his charisma.

Yes.

Yes.

It's his, you know, that gives his performance depth.

No, that doesn't give us, no.

That doesn't give us performance.

It gives it depth of likeability.

No, it just makes the audience, the audience has a like for Tom.

The most audience members other than FT.

Kosempa are going to be rooting for Tom Cruise.

No, they aren't necessarily.

You generalize like crazy, Tom, I was ready to say.

Are you Tom?

You love Tom so much.

Wait, do you have a Tom Cruise t-shirt on?

Yeah.

Yes.

But that doesn't mean anything.

That's half of the way.

Yeah.

Okay.

I hear you.

So I've already spoken about seeing a movie star dig into a media role, but I specifically enjoy seeing Tom-

Bite into a media role.

Yes.

I specifically enjoy Tom Cruise biting into a media role.

I love him as Frank TJ.

Mackey in Paul Thomas Anderson's Magnolia.

I love him in that.

Yeah.

He's good in that.

Yeah.

He's better in that for me.

It's a media role.

Yes.

And there are moments in here, particularly in the second half with the exchange with Vincent as they influence each other.

Well, mainly I think Tom Cruise influences Max, but there are moments of vulnerability there.

It's clear.

I mean, and it's nice work.

But to me, it was Mission Impossible.

It was the same thing that you said, his likeability and his fame.

That's what hurt it for me.

That's what hurt it for me.

And Anthony Mann, I'm Anthony Mann.

Michael Mann had him doing the Mission Impossible stuff, like jumping on to the Spider-Man on the subway at the end of the MTA.

I guess they call it there.

Yes, the MTA.

Unique name.

Like, no such MTA in New York.

One final thing I'll say, FT., is I think people don't have enough empathy for movie stars.

You know, I don't, no, seriously, I think, I don't, I don't, I pity the poor movie star.

No, I don't think people in general really feel sorry enough or care enough for the, for the travails of, of movie stars.

And what I, what I would say is, it's, it's not, it's not easy to be a, to be, to become a movie star.

And it's even harder to stay a movie star.

And it was interesting, as I contemplated Tom Cruise for this podcast, unlike you who just instantly snapped to, I hate Tom Cruise.

No, did I say that?

I never said that, I just preferred.

Let's put it this way, you are no Tom Cruise mega fan.

No, not even a super fan.

Super fan.

It's interesting, I ran some numbers here, okay?

Where'd you run them to?

Okay, Tom Cruise really broke out and became a star in 1983.

Wow.

So for 42, and sorry, in 2025, his movie Mission Impossible, Final Reckoning, which by the way is the third to the last installment in that, no, which is the final installment in Mission Impossible, supposedly.

That's 42 years later, that film, Mission Impossible, Final Reckoning, was the top 10 film at the box office in 2025.

So 42 years of being a movie star, which I don't know, again, we've had Jimmy Stewart, we've had John Wayne, I think Cruise is challenging that.

Oh, more so, yeah.

That record.

That's a long time.

And it's interesting.

And just to put it into perspective, Mr.

George Clunet, as the French call him, his first film that we consider him, a movie where he was the lead, which I'm being generous, it was From Dusk to Dawn, but I'm saying that's George Clunet's, that's George Clunet's Risky Business, which I'm being generous.

That came 13 years after Cruise did Risky Business.

When was Clunet on?

Clunet.

ER, ER.

Oh, well, obviously, so he was on TV for, I forget when he started, but that's where he became a star, though, you know.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

But I hear you, though.

We're talking about sympathy for movie stars.

Sympathy for TV stars, a whole different deal.

It's a whole different category.

Yes.

Yes.

One more thing.

I just wanted to just say that everybody has to watch the penultimate scene in the LADA's office, because that's the reason why this film won best editing all over the place.

It shows Michael Mann at its peak of shot selection and design.

You know, visual design.

The writing is incredible there, and it has an echo of Lady from Shanghai, if you remember that.

Breaking glass, breaking mirrors.

Breaking glass.

And yeah, there's a lot of glass breaking as you know.

Well, it's on that rare note of FT.

Kosempa having a positive thing to say.

Let's end it right there on that high note.

FT., why don't we call an end to this episode on collateral.

I'd like to thank everybody for listening, if people are still listening at this late point in the podcast.

If you're not listening, I'll just say, you're really...

It doesn't matter because you're not listening.

No, no, you missed FT.

Kosempa.

All these people who say, oh, FT he's always only says negative things.

They don't.

They missed him saying positive things.

You say negative things about me.

And it just...

Meta negativity.

It just goes to prove you never want to leave early an episode of They Shoot Films.

So thank you everybody for listening.

Go to theyshootfilms.com and you can send us comments.

You can leave us voicemails.

You can find out what's coming up on the next episode.

You can find our social media.

And let's call it a night, FT., thanks.

And where is it?

Where is it?

Oh, thank you, FT.

Where is it?

Thank you.

You're welcome, my friend.

Where is it?

Yes.

I don't know.

Where is it?

It's at theyshootfilms.com once again.

That's theyshootfilms.com.

Have a good one, FT.

You have two good ones, buddy.

Don't be cheap.

They Shoot Films is a production of Film Symposium West, produced by Anne-Marie De Palma, studio announcer Roy Blumenfeld.