The Sweet Smell of Success

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Show Notes
Transcript

The Sweet Smell of Success is now considered one of the classics of American cinema but was a critical and box office failure when it was first released in 1957. In this episode, Ken Mercer and FT Kosempa dive into the making of the film, the contributions of Clifford Odets and James Wong Howe, and the shadow that the McCarthy-era blacklist cast over the production. They also try to answer the question: is it Film Noir? The film stars Burt Lancaster, Tony Curtis and was directed by Alexander Mackendrick.

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<v SPEAKER_2>You're listening to They Shoot Films with Ken Mercer and FT.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Kosempa.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Be there, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of They Shoot Films.

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<v SPEAKER_3>My name is Ken Mercer, and I'm joined here as always with the great FT Kosempa, FT.

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<v SPEAKER_3>How's it going?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Well, I'm hanging in there, Ken, considering the, what?

00:00:37.578 --> 00:00:43.718
<v SPEAKER_3>You're beginning to sound like me with the downbeat, with the oil starting out to downbeat.

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<v SPEAKER_3>What do you mean?

00:00:45.598 --> 00:00:46.878
<v SPEAKER_3>Are you on fire?

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<v SPEAKER_2>No, no, no.

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<v SPEAKER_2>The smoke, wildfire smoke is drifting in here.

00:00:51.198 --> 00:00:54.798
<v SPEAKER_2>And, you know, my eyes and I'm coughing like crazy.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's wild.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Right, because you're in upstate New York, and you've got the smoke from the Canadian wildfires.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And Midwest.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Also, I think Minneapolis, Minnesota.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, sir.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Are there fires there?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I saw some.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Not personally, but.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Unfortunately, it's kind of a sad state of affairs.

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<v SPEAKER_3>My daughter believes there's a new season beyond winter, spring, summer and fall.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Smoke season, which is sadly a new reality for most of us.

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<v SPEAKER_3>But somewhat apropos for this episode, because the cat's in the bag and the bag's in the river.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And we're here to talk about the...

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<v SPEAKER_3>We're here to talk about The Sweet Smell of Success, the 1957 Alexander Mackendrick-directed film about a lot of smoked-filled nightclubs.

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<v SPEAKER_2>That's right.

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<v SPEAKER_2>We are.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Good.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I'm glad you know what you're here for.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And it's a big one.

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<v SPEAKER_3>This is kind of a towering film in the annals of American filmmaking.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So we have a lot to talk about.

00:02:11.618 --> 00:02:18.778
<v SPEAKER_3>But I thought to make things a little more fun for you, FT, because I know you're so easily bored.

00:02:22.458 --> 00:02:27.658
<v SPEAKER_3>We had a bell placed next to your station there.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Can you see a bell anywhere near?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Bell, bell, bell.

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<v SPEAKER_2>This one?

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<v SPEAKER_3>Is there a bell?

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<v SPEAKER_3>That's it.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Okay, you found the bell.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks, Anne-Marie, for properly setting up FT Studio.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So what we thought we'd do here, FT, play a little game to keep you interested.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Anytime you hear me say a line from the script of They Shoot Films.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Of They Shoot Films?

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<v SPEAKER_3>Anytime you hear me say...

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<v SPEAKER_3>You're going to have to go easy on that bell, buddy.

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<v SPEAKER_3>No kidding.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Anytime you heard me say a line from The Sweet Smell of Success, you ring the bell.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Let's see how many can pick up.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And they're going to be kind of woven into...

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<v SPEAKER_3>You're going to be...

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<v SPEAKER_3>I'm going to be weaving in lines from the film into things I say.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And so if you're wondering why is it that everything I say sounds like a threat, it's because I'm quoting from the film.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, this is exciting.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Well, no, but you missed one there.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I said, why is it that everything I say sounds like a threat was lifted from the film?

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<v SPEAKER_2>I thought you said thread.

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<v SPEAKER_2>From the film.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I thought you were weaving in and you distracted me.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But I missed it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I missed it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>I'll admit it.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So just to test it out again, if I said JJ, why is it that everything you say tonight sounds like a threat?

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<v SPEAKER_3>Bingo.

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<v SPEAKER_3>That's the idea of this thing.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Why am I salivating, salivating, why am I salivating?

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<v SPEAKER_3>I don't know.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Past life?

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<v SPEAKER_3>It has something to do with the fact that you're one of Pavlov's early subjects with the bell.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Evidently, yes.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Just at the outset here, I'd like to set up that a lot of the things we're going to be discussing today come to us through two sources.

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<v SPEAKER_3>One, James Naramore's book, The Sweet Smell of Success, which I'd highly recommend to anybody who's interested in this film or filmmaking.

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<v SPEAKER_3>It's part of the BFI, British Film Institute's series on film classics.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And also the director, Alexander Mackendrick, who left filmmaking to teach film at CalArts.

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<v SPEAKER_3>There's a book he put out which was basically a compendium of a lot of his handouts from his classes.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And that's called On Filmmaking by Alexander Mackendricks.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And I would highly recommend that to anybody who's interested in this film, The Sweet Smell of Success, or anybody who's interested in film directing in general.

00:05:04.058 --> 00:05:20.298
<v SPEAKER_3>It's interesting because it really gets into a lot of the craft and the details of directing, which will be helpful for anybody who does want to be a film director, but also for anybody interested in how directors, all the things that go into directing.

00:05:21.358 --> 00:05:27.298
<v SPEAKER_3>It's more difficult than just seeing cut and collecting a paycheck.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It is, much more, yes.

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<v SPEAKER_2>And it's also for friends and relatives of directors, so they can understand the torment.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And why don't we dive right in, FT., if we could, into the origins of how this film came to be.

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<v SPEAKER_3>I think there's so much interesting backstory on this one that it's worth spending some time on it.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So the origins of this film start with one, Ernest Lehman.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Ernie, as he was known to his friends.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Why are you laughing?

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<v SPEAKER_2>Nothing.

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<v SPEAKER_2>It's an unusual nickname for Ernest, you know, that's all.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, a creative nickname.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

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<v SPEAKER_3>So Ernest Lehman was started out working for a press agent, the most powerful press agent in the country at that time, a guy by the name of Irving Hoffman.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And coming out of that experience, he wrote an article for Cosmopolitan magazine, which was called Tell Me About It Tomorrow.

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<v SPEAKER_3>His original title was The Sweet Smell of Success.

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<v SPEAKER_3>For some reason, Kosempa felt that title was too racy, using something with smell in it.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Smell in it, yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_2>They didn't.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, and for some reason, it's evocative of, I don't know.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Perfume.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Well, but also the smell of shit, for some reason.

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<v SPEAKER_3>But that was the title.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And he was really scared about, he never wanted to sell the screen rights to the story, because in general, he was worried about the repercussions from Walter Winchell, who the story was clearly based on.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And we'll talk about that more in just a bit.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And also Irving Hoffman, the press agent he worked for, apparently didn't talk to Ernie Lehman for like a year and a half after the story came out.

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<v SPEAKER_3>But then what was interesting was somehow a friend intervened, got Irving Hoffman to talk to Ernie Lehman again.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And they patched things up.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And then somehow coming out of it, kind of straight out of Sweet Smell of Success, Ernie Lehman was able to write a piece in a column that Irving Hoffman was writing at that time.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And it was under Irving Hoffman's name.

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<v SPEAKER_3>But the column talked about, why isn't anybody calling Ernest Lehman to be a screenwriter?

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<v SPEAKER_3>The way he writes in the story, he would be perfect to be a screenwriter.

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<v SPEAKER_3>But Ernie Lehman wrote that, and it came out as if Irving Hoffman had written it.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And almost instantly, Ernie Lehman started getting calls from Hollywood, and within, I think, a period of weeks, he had relocated to Hollywood to begin a career as a screenwriter.

00:08:26.838 --> 00:08:29.058
<v SPEAKER_2>Wait a second, he plugged himself, yes.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, no, it's like Sweet Smell of Success.

00:08:33.318 --> 00:08:42.318
<v SPEAKER_3>He wrote the column, but it was under Irving Hoffman's name, and it was like, why isn't anybody calling Ernie Lehman to be a screenwriter?

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<v SPEAKER_3>So he relocated to Hollywood within two years.

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<v SPEAKER_3>He had done executive suite Sabrina, The King and I, and Somebody Up There Likes Me.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And apparently, he had opportunities to sell the rights to, which we'll just call it Sweet Smell of Success, instead of referring to it as Tell Me About It Tomorrow.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And he kept turning down the offers because he was afraid of repercussions from Walter Winchell, much like the repercussions Orson Welles ended up facing for Citizen Kane about William Randolph Hearst.

00:09:20.878 --> 00:09:23.478
<v SPEAKER_3>But a couple of things happened.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Burt Lancaster, who was a powerful star by this point.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And producer.

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<v SPEAKER_3>That's what I was going to say.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, he was a powerful star.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Started a production company with his agent, Harold Hecht, later joined by James Hill, which was one of the first independent production companies in Hollywood.

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<v SPEAKER_3>This was a time when the studio system was starting to collapse mostly because people stopped going to the movies.

00:09:50.378 --> 00:10:01.158
<v SPEAKER_3>If you look at the numbers, I think between 1946 and the late 60s, box office receipts had fallen by 70 percent.

00:10:01.158 --> 00:10:04.358
<v SPEAKER_3>And so it opened the door to independent producers.

00:10:04.358 --> 00:10:10.018
<v SPEAKER_3>By the way, obviously, Charlie Chaplin, who started independent artists, Chaplin.

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<v SPEAKER_2>Chaplin, Griffith, Mary Asser, Pickford, wasn't it?

00:10:13.558 --> 00:10:15.958
<v SPEAKER_2>And Fairbanks, it existed.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

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<v SPEAKER_3>But now the door had really been open to it.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And Hectail Lancaster was incredibly successful.

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<v SPEAKER_3>They had...

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<v SPEAKER_2>The year before, right?

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<v SPEAKER_3>Marty.

00:10:29.558 --> 00:10:29.778
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:10:29.778 --> 00:10:34.938
<v SPEAKER_3>But even before that, they had, I think, three pictures before Marty that were wildly successful.

00:10:34.938 --> 00:10:39.478
<v SPEAKER_3>And they were kind of the talk of Hollywood.

00:10:39.478 --> 00:10:49.338
<v SPEAKER_3>And then, yes, as you said, in 55, they did Marty, which not only was a huge commercial success, but won Sweat the Academy Awards.

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<v SPEAKER_3>And it was because of this success that when Hectail Lancaster approached Leeman about doing Sweet Smell of Success, he said yes for a couple of reasons.

00:11:02.558 --> 00:11:04.758
<v SPEAKER_3>One, because of the success of Marty.

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<v SPEAKER_3>Two, because of what...

00:11:06.998 --> 00:11:10.318
<v SPEAKER_3>And I guess he was talking to Patty Chayefsky, the screenwriter of Marty.

00:11:10.918 --> 00:11:13.638
<v SPEAKER_3>And Chayefsky had...

00:11:13.638 --> 00:11:19.638
<v SPEAKER_3>And you can tell by the script of Marty that they kind of had left Chayefsky alone to write such a great script.

00:11:19.638 --> 00:11:32.418
<v SPEAKER_3>So because of that experience and the fact that they told Leeman he could direct the film, that Leeman said yes and signed on and sold the rights to Sweet Smell of Success to Hectail Lancaster.

00:11:32.418 --> 00:11:39.558
<v SPEAKER_3>Interestingly, later, I think it was Hect who said they never for a minute intended to let Leeman direct it.

00:11:39.898 --> 00:11:40.478
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

00:11:40.478 --> 00:11:42.778
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:11:42.778 --> 00:11:51.258
<v SPEAKER_3>So Ernie Leeman sells the rights and almost immediately is uncomfortable working with Hectail Lancaster for a couple reasons.

00:11:51.258 --> 00:11:57.058
<v SPEAKER_3>One, apparently they are they were spending money like drunken sailors.

00:11:57.058 --> 00:12:03.418
<v SPEAKER_3>Leeman said they had spent $12,000 to redo a bathroom, which I guess at that time was a lot.

00:12:03.418 --> 00:12:11.078
<v SPEAKER_3>Now you can't get a bathroom remodel for less than that, but at that time what he thought it was profligate and they, is that the correct word there?

00:12:11.078 --> 00:12:12.318
<v SPEAKER_2>I think so.

00:12:12.318 --> 00:12:12.758
<v SPEAKER_3>Wow.

00:12:12.758 --> 00:12:14.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Big word for Ken.

00:12:16.578 --> 00:12:21.258
<v SPEAKER_3>And they had a separate apartment on Hectail Lancaster.

00:12:21.258 --> 00:12:29.338
<v SPEAKER_3>It had a separate, really apparently a really swanky apartment that they used just for sex with starlets.

00:12:29.338 --> 00:12:34.158
<v SPEAKER_3>And Lehmann talked about the first time he met Lancaster.

00:12:34.158 --> 00:12:36.998
<v SPEAKER_3>He met, I guess, met him in this apartment.

00:12:36.998 --> 00:12:39.918
<v SPEAKER_3>And he said, quote, I was sitting with Harold Heck.

00:12:39.918 --> 00:12:43.458
<v SPEAKER_3>The door opened and in walked a towering impressive figure.

00:12:43.458 --> 00:12:50.438
<v SPEAKER_3>He was zipping up his fly and smiling proudly and said, quote, she swallowed it.

00:12:50.438 --> 00:12:54.998
<v SPEAKER_3>And that was the first time he met Burt Lancaster.

00:12:55.038 --> 00:12:57.098
<v SPEAKER_2>I thought I was supposed to hit the bell.

00:13:01.858 --> 00:13:04.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, no, that was not in Sweet Smell of Success.

00:13:04.018 --> 00:13:04.618
<v SPEAKER_3>It wasn't?

00:13:04.618 --> 00:13:05.958
<v SPEAKER_2>It should have been.

00:13:05.958 --> 00:13:07.698
<v SPEAKER_2>It was, it was cut.

00:13:07.698 --> 00:13:14.638
<v SPEAKER_3>But the other thing was Lancaster was, apparently everybody was scared of Burt Lancaster.

00:13:14.638 --> 00:13:18.718
<v SPEAKER_3>In real life, he was a super, first of all, physically, he was a big dude.

00:13:19.898 --> 00:13:23.678
<v SPEAKER_3>You know FT, he was a circus performer before, he was an actor.

00:13:23.678 --> 00:13:23.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:13:23.838 --> 00:13:30.918
<v SPEAKER_3>And if you've known any circus performers, they're a rough bunch, except for the clowns.

00:13:30.918 --> 00:13:31.958
<v SPEAKER_2>No, no, you're wrong.

00:13:31.958 --> 00:13:34.998
<v SPEAKER_2>They're the roughest monster, you know.

00:13:34.998 --> 00:13:35.458
<v SPEAKER_2>That's true.

00:13:35.818 --> 00:13:42.178
<v SPEAKER_3>My daughter and I once had stayed, my daughter used to play softball, traveling softball.

00:13:42.178 --> 00:13:45.858
<v SPEAKER_3>And we're staying in this hotel somewhere.

00:13:45.858 --> 00:13:48.718
<v SPEAKER_3>And there was, at like two in the morning, there's all this noise.

00:13:48.778 --> 00:13:52.318
<v SPEAKER_3>I get woken up and I figured there's drunk people.

00:13:52.318 --> 00:13:56.538
<v SPEAKER_3>And I opened the door and the hallway is filled with clowns.

00:13:56.778 --> 00:14:02.458
<v SPEAKER_3>And apparently there was a rodeo in this town, and these were rodeo clowns.

00:14:02.458 --> 00:14:04.698
<v SPEAKER_3>And they were out in this hotel hallway.

00:14:04.698 --> 00:14:07.558
<v SPEAKER_3>And it was like crazy.

00:14:07.558 --> 00:14:16.518
<v SPEAKER_3>And I tried to ask him to be quiet and it did not go, you know, it ended up with me, like retreating back into my room, slamming the door and putting on the chain in fear.

00:14:16.518 --> 00:14:17.418
<v SPEAKER_2>You know what the problem was?

00:14:18.058 --> 00:14:18.618
<v SPEAKER_2>What?

00:14:18.618 --> 00:14:20.918
<v SPEAKER_2>You didn't say, this is not funny.

00:14:20.918 --> 00:14:23.118
<v SPEAKER_2>You think you're being funny?

00:14:23.118 --> 00:14:24.598
<v SPEAKER_2>To a bunch of clowns.

00:14:24.598 --> 00:14:25.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.

00:14:25.498 --> 00:14:30.258
<v SPEAKER_3>FT this syrup you're giving out, you pour over waffles, not Ken Mercer.

00:14:32.718 --> 00:14:34.278
<v SPEAKER_3>You got it.

00:14:34.278 --> 00:14:36.458
<v SPEAKER_3>You got it.

00:14:36.518 --> 00:14:37.058
<v SPEAKER_3>Good one, FT.

00:14:37.058 --> 00:14:38.878
<v SPEAKER_2>This is the best.

00:14:39.258 --> 00:14:42.018
<v SPEAKER_2>I feel so accomplished every time.

00:14:43.758 --> 00:14:45.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Are you salivating more or less out of it?

00:14:46.038 --> 00:14:47.498
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, the syrup didn't help.

00:14:47.498 --> 00:14:50.058
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, I was thinking of making pancakes tomorrow.

00:14:50.058 --> 00:14:50.698
<v SPEAKER_2>Isn't that funny?

00:14:50.698 --> 00:14:51.718
<v SPEAKER_2>Cornmeal pancakes.

00:14:51.718 --> 00:14:52.998
<v SPEAKER_2>How about that?

00:14:52.998 --> 00:14:54.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Anyway, we digress.

00:14:56.118 --> 00:15:00.198
<v SPEAKER_3>Everybody was scared of Burt Lancaster.

00:15:00.198 --> 00:15:05.718
<v SPEAKER_3>Norman Mallor was a friend of Burt's and a frequent bridge partner.

00:15:05.718 --> 00:15:13.358
<v SPEAKER_3>And Mallor, and as you remember, Mallor was a tough guy, you know, thought of himself and was a tough guy boxer.

00:15:13.858 --> 00:15:20.118
<v SPEAKER_3>And he said that he had never seen anything more menacing than Burt, than Lancaster's ice blue eyes.

00:15:21.298 --> 00:15:22.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.

00:15:22.458 --> 00:15:27.118
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, doing that most macho of events, bridge.

00:15:29.918 --> 00:15:33.118
<v SPEAKER_2>He pounced the table, stares.

00:15:34.258 --> 00:15:42.738
<v SPEAKER_3>And Elmer Bernstein, who of course composed the score for Sweet Smell of Success, recalled that quote, Burt was really scary.

00:15:43.138 --> 00:15:44.678
<v SPEAKER_3>He was a dangerous guy.

00:15:44.678 --> 00:15:46.518
<v SPEAKER_3>He had a short fuse.

00:15:47.278 --> 00:15:58.078
<v SPEAKER_3>And apparently there's a story that Lancaster in one of the first meetings threatened to punch Ernie Lehman, who's told the actor, Go ahead, Burt, I need the money.

00:15:59.658 --> 00:16:01.118
<v SPEAKER_2>Wait, is this a...

00:16:02.678 --> 00:16:03.498
<v SPEAKER_3>No, no.

00:16:03.498 --> 00:16:03.918
<v SPEAKER_2>Isn't there?

00:16:03.918 --> 00:16:05.618
<v SPEAKER_3>I need the money?

00:16:05.658 --> 00:16:08.818
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, it's a line, but not a memorable one.

00:16:08.818 --> 00:16:11.198
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay, well, no, I didn't realize that.

00:16:11.198 --> 00:16:16.278
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, I could bang the bell for everything, like, you know, hello, and I could go, bing, that's in the movie.

00:16:16.278 --> 00:16:20.318
<v SPEAKER_3>Interesting, though, there was one guy who was not scared of Burt Lancaster.

00:16:20.318 --> 00:16:22.418
<v SPEAKER_2>Was Kirk a friend of his?

00:16:22.418 --> 00:16:24.078
<v SPEAKER_2>Because he was a bit of a tough guy, wasn't he?

00:16:24.178 --> 00:16:33.458
<v SPEAKER_3>No, but you're right, could be, but one guy in this whole circle of Sweet Smell of Success that was not afraid of Burt at all.

00:16:33.458 --> 00:16:34.038
<v SPEAKER_2>Tony Curtis.

00:16:36.238 --> 00:16:36.418
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:16:37.478 --> 00:16:44.878
<v SPEAKER_3>Tony grew up in the streets and had a very tough, sorry, what's the word?

00:16:44.878 --> 00:16:47.998
<v SPEAKER_2>Background.

00:16:47.998 --> 00:16:49.658
<v SPEAKER_3>I was trying to be more literary.

00:16:49.658 --> 00:16:50.938
<v SPEAKER_3>Poetic.

00:16:50.938 --> 00:16:55.918
<v SPEAKER_3>I was going to say he had a Dickensian child upbringing, Tony Curtis.

00:16:55.918 --> 00:16:59.578
<v SPEAKER_3>So he was not scared of Lancaster.

00:16:59.578 --> 00:17:02.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Interesting though, Alexander Mackendrick.

00:17:02.718 --> 00:17:04.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Sandy, you went to the column, I heard you.

00:17:04.838 --> 00:17:05.318
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:17:05.318 --> 00:17:06.478
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, now that was his name.

00:17:06.478 --> 00:17:08.738
<v SPEAKER_3>I know, yeah, I know.

00:17:08.738 --> 00:17:18.898
<v SPEAKER_3>So Sandy Mackendrick probably was scared of Burt, but did not back down during the production, just stood up to Lancaster.

00:17:18.898 --> 00:17:29.798
<v SPEAKER_3>There's a good story from Sandy Mackendrick talking about one of their first story sessions on Sweet Smell of Success, quote, it was a late night story session.

00:17:29.798 --> 00:17:30.958
<v SPEAKER_3>We'd been drinking a little.

00:17:31.858 --> 00:17:34.378
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't believe that, but I don't believe the little part.

00:17:34.378 --> 00:17:35.838
<v SPEAKER_3>We'd been drinking a little.

00:17:35.838 --> 00:17:39.278
<v SPEAKER_3>Burt started shouting at me and he's scary.

00:17:39.278 --> 00:17:49.738
<v SPEAKER_3>Then he came across the room with that coiled spring energy like a panther and vaulted over the sofa in one of the most graceful movements I've ever seen as if to attack me.

00:17:49.738 --> 00:17:53.978
<v SPEAKER_3>I stood up and said, no, Burt, and he stopped.

00:17:53.978 --> 00:17:56.698
<v SPEAKER_3>That took every atom of performance possible.

00:17:56.698 --> 00:18:03.098
<v SPEAKER_3>The reason I had that strength was that just as he came across the sofa, I thought, he's beautiful.

00:18:03.098 --> 00:18:04.238
<v SPEAKER_2>Really?

00:18:04.238 --> 00:18:04.498
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:18:04.498 --> 00:18:05.098
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a quote.

00:18:05.098 --> 00:18:05.678
<v SPEAKER_2>Wow.

00:18:05.678 --> 00:18:06.618
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:18:06.618 --> 00:18:07.678
<v SPEAKER_3>I just love it.

00:18:07.678 --> 00:18:10.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Hopefully, you could conjure it up in your mind.

00:18:10.438 --> 00:18:19.878
<v SPEAKER_3>The idea of sitting in a room with Burt Lancaster, who just leaps up and just leaps over a sofa and comes at you.

00:18:19.918 --> 00:18:22.458
<v SPEAKER_2>But then stops, like, right?

00:18:22.458 --> 00:18:22.798
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:18:22.798 --> 00:18:23.898
<v SPEAKER_2>Wow.

00:18:23.898 --> 00:18:24.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:18:24.838 --> 00:18:26.158
<v SPEAKER_2>Wow.

00:18:26.298 --> 00:18:32.338
<v SPEAKER_3>And it's also another story about Mackendrick standing up to Burt, which is which is very interesting.

00:18:32.338 --> 00:18:52.258
<v SPEAKER_3>The first scene at the 21 Club in this movie, which I'd like to talk about more in depth later, but just briefly now, one of the brilliant things about the way that scene is shot is where Tony Curtis is placed, which is he's placed just off to Burt Lancaster's side in the frame.

00:18:52.258 --> 00:18:59.318
<v SPEAKER_3>So constantly, as Burt Lancaster is saying things about Tony, you're seeing his reaction.

00:18:59.438 --> 00:19:06.478
<v SPEAKER_3>And as Tony Curtis says things about JJ, you see Burt Lancaster and it's pretty brilliant.

00:19:06.478 --> 00:19:10.118
<v SPEAKER_3>But what's interesting is Lancaster said, no way.

00:19:10.118 --> 00:19:13.158
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't want Tony, I don't want to be boxed in.

00:19:13.158 --> 00:19:14.598
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't want Tony Curtis next to me.

00:19:14.938 --> 00:19:17.918
<v SPEAKER_3>He needs to sit across from me at the table.

00:19:17.918 --> 00:19:18.418
<v SPEAKER_2>False.

00:19:18.418 --> 00:19:22.278
<v SPEAKER_3>And Mackendrick tried to explain, no, here's why I want to do it this way.

00:19:22.278 --> 00:19:27.238
<v SPEAKER_3>And Burt just freaked out and threw over the whole table.

00:19:27.238 --> 00:19:28.278
<v SPEAKER_2>Jesus.

00:19:28.278 --> 00:19:29.918
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:19:29.918 --> 00:19:34.058
<v SPEAKER_3>But somehow Mackendrick just managed to stand his ground and I'm so glad he did.

00:19:34.058 --> 00:19:36.718
<v SPEAKER_3>Because again, if you look at that scene, it's brilliant.

00:19:36.718 --> 00:19:37.118
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:19:37.118 --> 00:19:40.538
<v SPEAKER_2>Tony Curtis appears to be sort of lower.

00:19:40.538 --> 00:19:44.138
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, that's, you know, he's not only off to the side, he appears to be lower.

00:19:44.298 --> 00:19:46.878
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, side kick, you know.

00:19:47.018 --> 00:19:48.418
<v SPEAKER_2>Someone will be kicked on the side.

00:19:48.418 --> 00:19:49.258
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:19:49.258 --> 00:19:49.778
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:19:49.778 --> 00:19:50.618
<v SPEAKER_2>Thank God.

00:19:50.618 --> 00:19:52.158
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:19:52.158 --> 00:20:06.718
<v SPEAKER_3>So coming back to our origin story, Lehman, when he was still in his imaginary role, his imaginary director, came up with the original casting idea for JJ.

00:20:06.718 --> 00:20:10.138
<v SPEAKER_3>Hunsack or the part that Burt Lancaster ended up playing.

00:20:10.518 --> 00:20:15.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Do you know who that, what Lehman's idea to play that role, who that was, FT.?

00:20:15.018 --> 00:20:15.758
<v SPEAKER_2>I do.

00:20:15.758 --> 00:20:17.458
<v SPEAKER_2>It was Orson Welles.

00:20:17.458 --> 00:20:18.378
<v SPEAKER_3>Correct.

00:20:18.378 --> 00:20:18.638
<v SPEAKER_3>Correct.

00:20:18.638 --> 00:20:19.378
<v SPEAKER_2>That's right.

00:20:20.418 --> 00:20:25.578
<v SPEAKER_3>It was supposed to be Orson Welles, which is interesting and begs this discussion.

00:20:26.698 --> 00:20:29.958
<v SPEAKER_3>How do you think Orson Welles would have been in the role of JJ.

00:20:29.958 --> 00:20:32.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Hunsack or FT.?

00:20:32.098 --> 00:20:34.498
<v SPEAKER_2>Charles Foster Canish, maybe.

00:20:34.498 --> 00:20:35.058
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

00:20:35.058 --> 00:20:39.258
<v SPEAKER_2>We're across between Charles Foster Cane and Hank Quinlan.

00:20:39.258 --> 00:20:39.798
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

00:20:40.658 --> 00:20:41.658
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a hard one to ask.

00:20:42.038 --> 00:20:43.318
<v SPEAKER_2>He can pull off anything.

00:20:43.318 --> 00:20:45.318
<v SPEAKER_2>Orson Welles is great.

00:20:45.318 --> 00:20:50.378
<v SPEAKER_3>But, Frank, you're taking for granted that people who listen to this podcast are film buffs.

00:20:50.378 --> 00:20:51.798
<v SPEAKER_2>People who have been to the movies.

00:20:51.798 --> 00:20:51.978
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:20:51.978 --> 00:20:54.118
<v SPEAKER_3>You need to say who Hank Quinlan was for people.

00:20:54.118 --> 00:21:01.778
<v SPEAKER_2>The Hank Quinlan is the antagonist, slash protagonist of, wait, what the hell was it?

00:21:01.778 --> 00:21:02.598
<v SPEAKER_3>The Sound of Music.

00:21:02.598 --> 00:21:04.358
<v SPEAKER_2>The Sweet Sound of Music.

00:21:04.358 --> 00:21:07.158
<v SPEAKER_3>No, it was the Orson Welles part in Touch of Evil.

00:21:07.198 --> 00:21:08.158
<v SPEAKER_2>Touch of Evil.

00:21:08.758 --> 00:21:18.558
<v SPEAKER_3>Which I'm glad you brought up, because again, when I ask you this question, what you have to imagine is, so Touch of Evil basically came out the next year.

00:21:18.558 --> 00:21:39.678
<v SPEAKER_3>So when I ask you how would Welles have been, it would have been the same time he played Hank Quinlan in Touch of Evil, and he would have done it because it was the same time where he had been in exile to Europe and came back looking to act in any picture that would hire him to raise money to direct his next independent film.

00:21:39.678 --> 00:21:44.678
<v SPEAKER_3>So yes, how would Orson Welles at the time of Touch of Evil been as JJ.

00:21:44.678 --> 00:21:47.258
<v SPEAKER_3>Huntsecker in this picture, FT?

00:21:47.258 --> 00:21:51.038
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm looking in my crystal ball here right now, which is, OK, what do you see?

00:21:51.038 --> 00:21:55.958
<v SPEAKER_2>And what I'm seeing, I'm seeing an interesting performance, but it's Orson Welles.

00:21:55.958 --> 00:22:00.918
<v SPEAKER_2>And it's not what Burt ended up doing, which was so unique.

00:22:00.918 --> 00:22:06.758
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it would have worked, but it would not have been the same thing, naturally and obviously, you know?

00:22:06.758 --> 00:22:08.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:22:08.018 --> 00:22:11.238
<v SPEAKER_3>So for the record, you want to say it would not be the same thing?

00:22:11.238 --> 00:22:12.798
<v SPEAKER_2>For the record, I just said that.

00:22:12.798 --> 00:22:13.578
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:22:13.578 --> 00:22:16.138
<v SPEAKER_2>On the record, for the record, and because of the record.

00:22:16.138 --> 00:22:17.458
<v SPEAKER_3>I think, I think.

00:22:17.458 --> 00:22:18.198
<v SPEAKER_2>Broken record.

00:22:18.198 --> 00:22:21.018
<v SPEAKER_3>I think it would have been great and problematic.

00:22:21.018 --> 00:22:31.218
<v SPEAKER_3>And the problematic is exactly the reason that Ernie Lehman wanted to use him, which is, oh, it's just like Citizen Kane, where he played William Randolph Hearst.

00:22:31.298 --> 00:22:34.318
<v SPEAKER_3>And now he'll be Walter Winchell.

00:22:34.318 --> 00:22:39.198
<v SPEAKER_3>It would have been too close to a repeat of Citizen Kane.

00:22:39.198 --> 00:22:55.698
<v SPEAKER_3>But it would have been great because I feel like Wells, just his natural, the way he speaks and his intelligence and his wit would have been, and his natural power would have been perfect for JJ.

00:22:55.698 --> 00:22:56.798
<v SPEAKER_3>Hunsaker.

00:22:56.958 --> 00:23:04.338
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm hoping we can bring in, there was a famous piece of audio that was always circulating in film.

00:23:04.458 --> 00:23:11.698
<v SPEAKER_3>I remember one of the first things I directed, the DP turned me on to this tape.

00:23:12.958 --> 00:23:24.898
<v SPEAKER_3>People used to, in the film business, had copies of cassette tapes of this legendary recording, which of course now you can find on the internet, of Orson Welles doing a voiceover for a commercial.

00:23:24.898 --> 00:23:32.738
<v SPEAKER_3>What the tape is, is the full audio with the engineer talking to Orson Welles in the booth.

00:23:32.738 --> 00:23:37.118
<v SPEAKER_3>And the way Orson Welles dealt with this engineer is just remarkable.

00:23:37.118 --> 00:23:43.138
<v SPEAKER_3>And I want to have Anne-Marie slot that into this podcast for people who haven't heard it.

00:23:43.138 --> 00:23:47.378
<v SPEAKER_4>Nothing is more important than the simple act of people getting together.

00:23:50.298 --> 00:23:54.458
<v SPEAKER_1>Could I have one more take of that?

00:23:54.458 --> 00:23:54.818
<v SPEAKER_4>Why?

00:23:54.818 --> 00:23:56.678
<v SPEAKER_4>I just did it right.

00:23:56.678 --> 00:23:58.978
<v SPEAKER_4>Look, I'm not used to having more than one person in there.

00:23:59.298 --> 00:24:01.558
<v SPEAKER_4>One more word out of you and you go.

00:24:01.558 --> 00:24:02.578
<v SPEAKER_4>Is that clear?

00:24:02.578 --> 00:24:04.038
<v SPEAKER_1>Yes, sir.

00:24:04.498 --> 00:24:09.898
<v SPEAKER_4>I take directions from one person under protest, but from two I don't sit still.

00:24:09.898 --> 00:24:11.338
<v SPEAKER_4>Who the hell are you, anyway?

00:24:11.338 --> 00:24:13.358
<v SPEAKER_1>You know, I'm the engineer.

00:24:13.358 --> 00:24:15.658
<v SPEAKER_4>Well, why the hell are you asking me for another one?

00:24:15.658 --> 00:24:19.738
<v SPEAKER_1>Well, I thought there was a slight bonk and I would just like to be safe.

00:24:19.738 --> 00:24:21.238
<v SPEAKER_4>Jesus.

00:24:21.238 --> 00:24:22.298
<v SPEAKER_4>What is a bonk?

00:24:22.298 --> 00:24:23.738
<v SPEAKER_4>Do you mind telling me what that is?

00:24:23.738 --> 00:24:26.078
<v SPEAKER_1>A bang from outside.

00:24:26.078 --> 00:24:27.538
<v SPEAKER_4>A bang from outside.

00:24:28.698 --> 00:24:32.398
<v SPEAKER_3>I think when you listen to that, to me, it is JJ.

00:24:32.398 --> 00:24:33.218
<v SPEAKER_3>Hunsecker.

00:24:33.218 --> 00:24:34.358
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, a version of it.

00:24:34.358 --> 00:24:36.478
<v SPEAKER_2>I will say this.

00:24:36.478 --> 00:24:41.618
<v SPEAKER_2>In the novella, JJ is described as having a pudgy face.

00:24:41.618 --> 00:24:42.758
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:24:42.758 --> 00:24:46.378
<v SPEAKER_2>And also, he feels a little more like sweaty.

00:24:47.458 --> 00:24:51.818
<v SPEAKER_2>Just, he's not as calculating and precise and logical.

00:24:51.818 --> 00:24:59.398
<v SPEAKER_2>And I hate to use that word logical, but you know, I just use it anyhow, as Burt is, you know.

00:24:59.438 --> 00:25:00.218
<v SPEAKER_3>FT.?

00:25:00.218 --> 00:25:00.958
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:25:00.958 --> 00:25:03.578
<v SPEAKER_3>I often wish I were deaf and worried.

00:25:03.578 --> 00:25:07.818
<v SPEAKER_3>With a simple flick of a switch, I could shed out the greedy murmur of little men.

00:25:12.118 --> 00:25:12.698
<v SPEAKER_3>You got it.

00:25:12.698 --> 00:25:13.198
<v SPEAKER_3>You got it.

00:25:13.958 --> 00:25:22.858
<v SPEAKER_3>And as I said before, if everything I say sounds like a threat, this piece I'm quoting from the film, you got it, FT.

00:25:22.858 --> 00:25:23.778
<v SPEAKER_3>Good job.

00:25:23.778 --> 00:25:24.358
<v SPEAKER_3>Good job.

00:25:24.358 --> 00:25:38.318
<v SPEAKER_2>One other thing, you know, but if Wells would have played it, I think that Lehman would have had him do a mannerism that's in the book, which is he always or mostly refers to himself in the third person.

00:25:38.318 --> 00:25:38.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:25:38.658 --> 00:25:40.398
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, you know.

00:25:40.398 --> 00:25:42.258
<v SPEAKER_3>As do I.

00:25:42.258 --> 00:25:45.318
<v SPEAKER_2>As does Ken Mercer, you mean?

00:25:45.318 --> 00:25:46.478
<v SPEAKER_3>No, no, I always refer to-

00:25:46.478 --> 00:25:48.158
<v SPEAKER_2>No, Ken Mercer refers to himself.

00:25:48.158 --> 00:25:49.998
<v SPEAKER_3>I refer to Orson Welles in the third person.

00:25:50.318 --> 00:25:54.298
<v SPEAKER_2>FT refers to FT and Ken Mercer.

00:25:54.298 --> 00:25:55.858
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:25:55.858 --> 00:25:56.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:25:56.238 --> 00:26:09.218
<v SPEAKER_3>So at this point, though, it gets interesting because Hectal Lancaster did bring in Mackendrick to direct replacing Ernie Lehman, who was none too happy.

00:26:09.218 --> 00:26:13.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Ernie Lehman started working with Mackendrick on the screenplay.

00:26:13.178 --> 00:26:21.338
<v SPEAKER_3>But the environment with the physical threats from Lancaster and all this other stuff, zippers are constantly being zipped up.

00:26:21.338 --> 00:26:27.478
<v SPEAKER_3>Girls are probably are constantly being reported as swallowing.

00:26:27.478 --> 00:26:32.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Lehman, who always had a apparently a weak stomach.

00:26:34.358 --> 00:26:36.418
<v SPEAKER_2>Just watching all that swallowing.

00:26:38.238 --> 00:26:40.098
<v SPEAKER_2>He couldn't swallow it.

00:26:42.158 --> 00:26:43.518
<v SPEAKER_3>Couldn't swallow it.

00:26:43.518 --> 00:26:45.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:26:45.518 --> 00:26:50.558
<v SPEAKER_3>He developed a spastic colon, which I don't think you can call them spastic.

00:26:50.558 --> 00:26:52.058
<v SPEAKER_2>No, you can't.

00:26:52.058 --> 00:26:57.778
<v SPEAKER_2>You have to call them disabled or an S, S word colon or a colon on the spectrum.

00:26:57.778 --> 00:27:00.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Hence the S, something like that.

00:27:00.798 --> 00:27:00.958
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:27:01.458 --> 00:27:03.858
<v SPEAKER_3>So he developed a spastic colon and...

00:27:03.878 --> 00:27:04.978
<v SPEAKER_2>No, you mean an S word colon.

00:27:04.978 --> 00:27:05.918
<v SPEAKER_3>Sorry.

00:27:05.958 --> 00:27:08.658
<v SPEAKER_3>He developed an S word colon, sorry.

00:27:09.558 --> 00:27:16.418
<v SPEAKER_3>And maybe he just wanted off the picture, but brought in a doctor's note saying he had to leave to go to Tahiti to recover.

00:27:16.418 --> 00:27:17.438
<v SPEAKER_2>Are you serious?

00:27:17.438 --> 00:27:17.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:27:17.678 --> 00:27:24.338
<v SPEAKER_3>And leaves the picture after basically the first script meeting with Mackendrick.

00:27:24.418 --> 00:27:25.818
<v SPEAKER_2>Holy moly.

00:27:25.978 --> 00:27:33.658
<v SPEAKER_3>At which point Sandy Mackendrick brought in Clifford Odets.

00:27:33.658 --> 00:27:40.438
<v SPEAKER_3>But before we get to Clifford Odets, who we should discuss, we should talk about who the casting idea for JJ.

00:27:40.438 --> 00:27:43.818
<v SPEAKER_3>Hunsecker was that Mackendrick had.

00:27:43.818 --> 00:27:45.458
<v SPEAKER_3>FT, do you know who that was?

00:27:45.458 --> 00:27:48.778
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I've always, I've wondered about that.

00:27:48.778 --> 00:27:51.318
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I have no idea who.

00:27:51.318 --> 00:27:59.058
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, it was because of, basically because of his resemblance to Walter Winchell, Mackendrick's idea was Eum Cronin.

00:27:59.058 --> 00:28:01.558
<v SPEAKER_2>Huh, they really resemble each other?

00:28:01.558 --> 00:28:03.778
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, he does resemble Winchell.

00:28:03.778 --> 00:28:06.998
<v SPEAKER_3>And what do you think of that casting idea, FT?

00:28:06.998 --> 00:28:13.278
<v SPEAKER_2>I refresh my memory of Hunsecker's CV, at least one film, I forget.

00:28:13.278 --> 00:28:16.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, he's been in so much stuff, but it's actually interesting.

00:28:16.898 --> 00:28:20.438
<v SPEAKER_3>He, you see, usually doesn't play heavies, but it's interesting.

00:28:20.598 --> 00:28:27.338
<v SPEAKER_3>He had played opposite of Lancaster and I think in Criss Cross, where he was a heavy.

00:28:27.338 --> 00:28:27.758
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

00:28:27.758 --> 00:28:31.178
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I don't think there's enough star, I don't think there's enough charisma.

00:28:31.178 --> 00:28:33.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, no, I don't think it would be good.

00:28:33.178 --> 00:28:37.798
<v SPEAKER_3>So fortunately at this point, Lancaster says, I want the part.

00:28:37.798 --> 00:28:38.258
<v SPEAKER_2>Thank God.

00:28:38.258 --> 00:28:43.178
<v SPEAKER_3>And since it's his production company, he gets the part.

00:28:43.178 --> 00:28:51.418
<v SPEAKER_3>So Sandy Mackendrick says, now that Lehman's gone, that he wants to hire Clifford Odets, who had always been one of his heroes.

00:28:51.418 --> 00:29:00.318
<v SPEAKER_3>And curiously enough, Odets was under contract working on something else at Hect Hill Lancaster.

00:29:00.318 --> 00:29:02.798
<v SPEAKER_2>And the question is, what was he working on?

00:29:02.798 --> 00:29:04.238
<v SPEAKER_3>No?

00:29:04.238 --> 00:29:06.598
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I do know, but I don't have it on hand.

00:29:06.818 --> 00:29:11.698
<v SPEAKER_3>It's actually in the BFI, the Naramore book, but I forget what he was working on.

00:29:11.698 --> 00:29:12.818
<v SPEAKER_3>It's something else there.

00:29:12.818 --> 00:29:22.978
<v SPEAKER_3>But fortunately, he was pulled on, transferred to Sweet Smell of Success, which is kind of his film, what he's known for in the film world.

00:29:22.978 --> 00:29:32.738
<v SPEAKER_3>And it's interesting, Odets at this point, this point being like 1956, a lot of people regarded him as a has-been.

00:29:33.078 --> 00:29:39.618
<v SPEAKER_3>And of course, when you say a has-been, FT, do you want to talk about what he had been?

00:29:39.618 --> 00:29:40.338
<v SPEAKER_2>I really don't.

00:29:40.338 --> 00:29:48.238
<v SPEAKER_2>Honestly, I really didn't know that much about him, Clifford Odets, believe it or not, except I didn't know, was it Big Knife before this or after this?

00:29:48.238 --> 00:29:54.958
<v SPEAKER_2>His play with Jack Palance and Robert Aldridge directed it.

00:29:54.978 --> 00:30:01.018
<v SPEAKER_2>I really didn't know that much about, I knew the name, wait, Waiting for Lefty, right?

00:30:01.018 --> 00:30:01.378
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:30:01.378 --> 00:30:02.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:30:02.018 --> 00:30:03.998
<v SPEAKER_2>Famous play.

00:30:03.998 --> 00:30:05.778
<v SPEAKER_2>And he was left winger, totally, right?

00:30:05.778 --> 00:30:06.078
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:30:06.078 --> 00:30:11.818
<v SPEAKER_3>So Odets was probably one of the most important playwrights.

00:30:13.158 --> 00:30:13.798
<v SPEAKER_3>Why are you laughing?

00:30:13.838 --> 00:30:17.318
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you know anything about the most important playwright of the mid-30s?

00:30:17.318 --> 00:30:17.958
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

00:30:18.238 --> 00:30:23.118
<v SPEAKER_3>And it came just before Arthur Miller, or as I like to call him, Artie Miller.

00:30:23.118 --> 00:30:23.478
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:30:23.478 --> 00:30:37.418
<v SPEAKER_3>And so Odets was actually an actor in the group theater and then became the playwright in some of the most important plays for the group theater and he-

00:30:37.418 --> 00:30:39.638
<v SPEAKER_2>That being Strausberg's group, right?

00:30:39.638 --> 00:30:43.138
<v SPEAKER_2>The group theater for those folks out there that don't know anything about the method.

00:30:43.798 --> 00:30:44.538
<v SPEAKER_2>And the history.

00:30:44.538 --> 00:30:44.738
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:30:44.738 --> 00:30:59.778
<v SPEAKER_3>So anyway, jumping Odets was part of the group theater, which as you know, was a hotbed for the American Communist Party, you know, for left-wing politics and Communist influence.

00:30:59.778 --> 00:31:06.858
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, socialist influence or Communist influence, you know, it's not exact, you know, but-

00:31:06.858 --> 00:31:08.758
<v SPEAKER_3>What's the difference between a socialist and a communist?

00:31:08.758 --> 00:31:15.878
<v SPEAKER_2>One that was had total allegiance to Moscow only, which was the American Communist Party, and the American Socialist Party did not.

00:31:15.878 --> 00:31:16.498
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:31:16.498 --> 00:31:18.418
<v SPEAKER_2>So that was the difference.

00:31:18.418 --> 00:31:21.038
<v SPEAKER_3>Which one are you, FT.?

00:31:21.038 --> 00:31:27.258
<v SPEAKER_2>Back then, I would have been definitely socialist because the crimes of Stalin were already well known.

00:31:27.258 --> 00:31:30.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Are you now or have you ever been a communist?

00:31:31.118 --> 00:31:47.658
<v SPEAKER_3>So, what happened was, Odets did get hauled before the House Un-American Activities Committee, Joseph McCarthy's committee with Roy Cohn at his side, and Odets named names.

00:31:47.918 --> 00:31:50.658
<v SPEAKER_3>So, became so ostracized in New York.

00:31:51.078 --> 00:31:58.198
<v SPEAKER_3>He would get attacked on the streets, and even in Hollywood, paid the price for naming names.

00:31:59.218 --> 00:32:00.318
<v SPEAKER_2>But you know one thing?

00:32:00.318 --> 00:32:04.458
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, he and Kazan, you know what they did?

00:32:04.458 --> 00:32:08.138
<v SPEAKER_2>They named names that were already named, and they would name each other.

00:32:08.138 --> 00:32:11.698
<v SPEAKER_2>So, they thought they were getting off the hook.

00:32:11.698 --> 00:32:11.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:32:11.998 --> 00:32:21.718
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, and I know there's some Kazan, and Kazan was shocked that, and Kazan also felt that Odets got more of a, more flack for this than he did.

00:32:21.718 --> 00:32:25.218
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, I guess because he was, you know, so much more famous early on, you know, anyhow.

00:32:25.278 --> 00:32:30.358
<v SPEAKER_3>So you've gone from, you've gone from somebody who doesn't know, doesn't know much about Clifford Odets to...

00:32:30.358 --> 00:32:33.498
<v SPEAKER_2>I knew that via Kazan actually to be, to defend my ignorance.

00:32:33.498 --> 00:32:34.598
<v SPEAKER_2>I'll defend my ignorance.

00:32:34.598 --> 00:32:39.818
<v SPEAKER_3>No, you're defending your profession of ignorance when you're not really ignorant.

00:32:40.218 --> 00:32:45.178
<v SPEAKER_3>You're defending your subterfuge, your Machiavellian tendencies.

00:32:45.178 --> 00:32:46.038
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:32:46.038 --> 00:32:46.978
<v SPEAKER_2>Hence the movie.

00:32:46.978 --> 00:32:47.518
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:32:47.518 --> 00:32:48.158
<v SPEAKER_3>Perfect.

00:32:48.158 --> 00:32:49.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Exactly.

00:32:49.498 --> 00:32:53.058
<v SPEAKER_3>Interesting, though, the House Un-American Activities Committee.

00:32:53.058 --> 00:32:56.338
<v SPEAKER_3>So Odets named names, and of course, he was a screenwriter.

00:32:56.338 --> 00:33:00.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Harold Hecht, the producer, had named names.

00:33:00.238 --> 00:33:05.738
<v SPEAKER_3>And Lancaster was kind of at the, had never gone before the committee.

00:33:05.738 --> 00:33:09.998
<v SPEAKER_3>I think he was too powerful to, actually, they kept him out of the committee.

00:33:09.998 --> 00:33:14.678
<v SPEAKER_3>But he was like the biggest opponent of the House American Activities Committee.

00:33:14.678 --> 00:33:19.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Because so many stars, you know, were scared to speak out against the committee.

00:33:19.398 --> 00:33:26.318
<v SPEAKER_3>McCarthy, Lancaster, actually, was very outspoken against the committee.

00:33:27.158 --> 00:33:33.798
<v SPEAKER_3>And also a big defender of artists that were blacklisted, which is why he had Odets under contract.

00:33:33.798 --> 00:33:34.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, sir.

00:33:34.998 --> 00:33:38.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Is it okay these days for me to defend Odets for naming names?

00:33:38.678 --> 00:33:40.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Or is it still something I shouldn't have to do?

00:33:40.658 --> 00:33:41.958
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a hard thing, man.

00:33:43.798 --> 00:33:46.938
<v SPEAKER_3>Do you permit me to sort of defend Odets?

00:33:46.938 --> 00:33:50.178
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, you know, let me hear what you would call a defense.

00:33:50.178 --> 00:33:53.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, Odets' wife was institutionalized.

00:33:54.198 --> 00:33:57.238
<v SPEAKER_3>I think she was like a schizophrenic.

00:33:57.238 --> 00:34:03.618
<v SPEAKER_3>So she had to be institutionalized, and he had two, I think, two kids.

00:34:03.618 --> 00:34:10.338
<v SPEAKER_3>So all of a sudden, he's paying for the institution where his wife is, and having to be a single father and take care of these two kids.

00:34:10.398 --> 00:34:12.718
<v SPEAKER_3>So he had real financial pressures.

00:34:12.718 --> 00:34:23.558
<v SPEAKER_3>And so getting blacklisted, he did it out of financial desperation, as unfortunately so many people were forced to do back in those days.

00:34:23.558 --> 00:34:27.878
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, you know, the standard left-wing line was that so was everybody else, Dalton Trumbo and all of them.

00:34:27.878 --> 00:34:29.578
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's not a defense.

00:34:29.578 --> 00:34:30.458
<v SPEAKER_2>It's an excuse.

00:34:30.458 --> 00:34:32.958
<v SPEAKER_2>But this is a long issue, big issue.

00:34:32.958 --> 00:34:35.598
<v SPEAKER_2>Let's, you know, I would say we move on.

00:34:35.598 --> 00:34:38.118
<v SPEAKER_3>Thank you, FT., for what I consider sound advice.

00:34:40.658 --> 00:34:44.538
<v SPEAKER_2>Say that a little more naturally rather than like an announcer.

00:34:44.538 --> 00:34:45.498
<v SPEAKER_3>You're blind, Mr.

00:34:45.498 --> 00:34:47.478
<v SPEAKER_3>Magoo.

00:34:47.478 --> 00:34:48.618
<v SPEAKER_3>Correct, FT.

00:34:48.898 --> 00:34:52.638
<v SPEAKER_3>That is another line from our film.

00:34:52.638 --> 00:34:55.878
<v SPEAKER_3>They keep wanting to call it They Shoot Films.

00:34:55.878 --> 00:34:56.918
<v SPEAKER_2>I know you do.

00:34:56.918 --> 00:34:57.718
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:34:57.718 --> 00:34:59.558
<v SPEAKER_2>But that's okay.

00:34:59.558 --> 00:35:01.358
<v SPEAKER_3>So I have a trivia question for you.

00:35:01.438 --> 00:35:02.818
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, I love trivia questions.

00:35:02.818 --> 00:35:03.338
<v SPEAKER_2>Hit me.

00:35:03.378 --> 00:35:04.438
<v SPEAKER_3>I know you do.

00:35:04.438 --> 00:35:04.958
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.

00:35:04.958 --> 00:35:11.198
<v SPEAKER_3>What film character was based on Clifford Odets?

00:35:11.198 --> 00:35:13.238
<v SPEAKER_2>What if I think of Bugs Bunny?

00:35:14.518 --> 00:35:15.578
<v SPEAKER_2>Film character.

00:35:15.578 --> 00:35:16.678
<v SPEAKER_4>Wait.

00:35:16.678 --> 00:35:18.818
<v SPEAKER_2>I know this, but it's in there.

00:35:18.818 --> 00:35:19.798
<v SPEAKER_2>It's in there, but I can't.

00:35:19.798 --> 00:35:21.678
<v SPEAKER_3>I'll help you.

00:35:21.678 --> 00:35:26.978
<v SPEAKER_3>The directors of the film copied Clifford Odets' hairstyle.

00:35:27.138 --> 00:35:32.278
<v SPEAKER_3>The character in the film, John Turturro, has Clifford Odets' exact hairstyle.

00:35:33.138 --> 00:35:35.438
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, the Cone Boys, the Hollywood one.

00:35:36.118 --> 00:35:36.738
<v SPEAKER_2>What's the name of that?

00:35:36.738 --> 00:35:37.178
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, brother.

00:35:37.178 --> 00:35:37.618
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

00:35:37.618 --> 00:35:38.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Barton Fink.

00:35:38.458 --> 00:35:40.098
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, Barton, where are you?

00:35:40.098 --> 00:35:40.558
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:35:40.558 --> 00:35:41.058
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:35:41.318 --> 00:35:46.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Barton Fink was based on Clifford Odets, the cry of the fishmonger.

00:35:46.658 --> 00:35:47.698
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:35:47.838 --> 00:35:48.338
<v SPEAKER_3>As he does.

00:35:48.338 --> 00:35:48.778
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

00:35:48.778 --> 00:35:50.318
<v SPEAKER_2>The play that made her famous.

00:35:50.318 --> 00:35:50.818
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

00:35:50.818 --> 00:35:57.978
<v SPEAKER_3>If you look at a picture of Clifford Odets and his hairstyle and Turturro, its exact hairstyle.

00:35:57.978 --> 00:36:01.158
<v SPEAKER_2>You used to have that hairstyle for a brief period, didn't you?

00:36:01.158 --> 00:36:01.278
<v SPEAKER_5>Me?

00:36:01.418 --> 00:36:02.978
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:36:03.198 --> 00:36:06.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Only when I was an understudy for John Turturro and Barton Fink.

00:36:06.998 --> 00:36:07.818
<v SPEAKER_5>Huh.

00:36:07.818 --> 00:36:08.638
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:36:08.638 --> 00:36:10.038
<v SPEAKER_2>How about that?

00:36:11.058 --> 00:36:19.798
<v SPEAKER_3>So coming back to Odets, he began rewriting the film with, under the direction of Sandy Mackendrick.

00:36:19.798 --> 00:36:28.498
<v SPEAKER_3>And when I say rewriting, I mean rewriting because Odets' papers are at Indiana University.

00:36:29.218 --> 00:36:34.838
<v SPEAKER_3>There's 11 drafts of Sweet Smell of Success that are signed by Odets.

00:36:34.838 --> 00:36:36.978
<v SPEAKER_3>So there was the original Lehman draft.

00:36:36.978 --> 00:36:38.318
<v SPEAKER_3>Lehman did a draft.

00:36:38.318 --> 00:36:41.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Odets did 11 that they collected.

00:36:41.518 --> 00:36:42.658
<v SPEAKER_3>There may be more.

00:36:42.778 --> 00:36:52.578
<v SPEAKER_3>11 full screenplay rewrites and then scores of individual scenes that he had written and rewritten.

00:36:53.798 --> 00:37:01.358
<v SPEAKER_3>And he was doing so many rewrites that when the movie started, they did not have a final script.

00:37:01.358 --> 00:37:09.538
<v SPEAKER_3>So the production company put him up at a hotel in New York so he could keep writing while they were shooting.

00:37:09.538 --> 00:37:18.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Again, we're kind of used to it these days with productions where we hear, oh, they were writing and Coppola would be rewriting the ending of Apocalypse Now.

00:37:18.678 --> 00:37:19.658
<v SPEAKER_3>He wouldn't know the ending.

00:37:19.658 --> 00:37:23.338
<v SPEAKER_3>But again, in those days, the studio system days, they didn't shoot until...

00:37:23.398 --> 00:37:25.958
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, the script was ready, yeah.

00:37:25.958 --> 00:37:31.198
<v SPEAKER_3>And so most of the movie, the location stuff in New York, they shot at night.

00:37:31.198 --> 00:37:32.278
<v SPEAKER_3>I think the shoot started at night.

00:37:32.278 --> 00:37:33.598
<v SPEAKER_2>Night and dawn, right.

00:37:33.598 --> 00:37:35.258
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, between midnight and dawn.

00:37:35.258 --> 00:37:37.378
<v SPEAKER_3>And it was winter, so it was freezing.

00:37:37.518 --> 00:37:41.058
<v SPEAKER_3>And Tony Curtis has a great story about Clifford Odets.

00:37:41.058 --> 00:37:49.738
<v SPEAKER_3>He says, this is Tony Curtis, I remember it was about three or four in the morning, and it was cold, bitter, and miserable.

00:37:49.738 --> 00:37:56.078
<v SPEAKER_3>Between shots, I was strolling around and I heard this tick, tick, tick, tick coming from inside the prop truck.

00:37:56.078 --> 00:38:01.398
<v SPEAKER_3>So I go in and there's Clifford Odets sitting in an overcoat huddled over his typewriter.

00:38:01.398 --> 00:38:06.258
<v SPEAKER_3>I see that he's just typed out, quote, the cat's in the bag and the bag's in the river.

00:38:06.258 --> 00:38:09.638
<v SPEAKER_3>It took my breath away right from his brain to my brain.

00:38:09.638 --> 00:38:10.718
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh my God.

00:38:10.718 --> 00:38:12.598
<v SPEAKER_2>And I did not ring the bell.

00:38:12.598 --> 00:38:13.258
<v SPEAKER_2>Huh.

00:38:13.258 --> 00:38:13.698
<v SPEAKER_2>Wow.

00:38:13.698 --> 00:38:14.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, no, that's good.

00:38:14.438 --> 00:38:16.818
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow.

00:38:16.818 --> 00:38:18.098
<v SPEAKER_2>That's something though, isn't it?

00:38:18.098 --> 00:38:20.638
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, you just walk in on the famous line as...

00:38:21.578 --> 00:38:30.718
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, it's that, but the fact that in the, you know, that's three or four in the morning, freezing weather, he's in the back of a prop truck with a coat on, typing away.

00:38:30.958 --> 00:38:40.638
<v SPEAKER_2>Right, right, but Tony Curtis' point is that to be, you know, to be at that moment where he just finished the line, that's, you know, that's like, you know, that's the moment of creativity.

00:38:40.638 --> 00:38:42.038
<v SPEAKER_2>That's what is amazing.

00:38:42.038 --> 00:38:42.758
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:38:42.758 --> 00:38:49.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, we all have, we all take, you know, my takeaway was just the insanity of what Odets was going through on these rewrites.

00:38:49.898 --> 00:38:50.478
<v SPEAKER_2>I know.

00:38:50.478 --> 00:38:52.238
<v SPEAKER_2>My take was slightly different.

00:38:52.238 --> 00:38:53.738
<v SPEAKER_3>Your take is different.

00:38:53.738 --> 00:38:55.418
<v SPEAKER_3>That's why we do this podcast together.

00:38:55.418 --> 00:38:59.298
<v SPEAKER_3>We both have individual takes on things, FT.

00:38:59.298 --> 00:39:00.238
<v SPEAKER_3>And that's why.

00:39:00.238 --> 00:39:02.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Do you ever say how much I appreciate you, FT?

00:39:02.018 --> 00:39:05.278
<v SPEAKER_2>Did I ever say how much I appreciate you?

00:39:05.278 --> 00:39:07.618
<v SPEAKER_3>No, but that's what I'm fishing for.

00:39:07.618 --> 00:39:08.458
<v SPEAKER_2>I do, man.

00:39:08.458 --> 00:39:09.198
<v SPEAKER_2>I really do.

00:39:09.198 --> 00:39:10.038
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.

00:39:10.038 --> 00:39:10.558
<v SPEAKER_3>Thanks.

00:39:10.558 --> 00:39:11.598
<v SPEAKER_3>You're welcome.

00:39:11.598 --> 00:39:12.618
<v SPEAKER_2>I think I appreciate you more.

00:39:12.658 --> 00:39:13.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Then we gotta move on.

00:39:13.178 --> 00:39:14.778
<v SPEAKER_2>Personally, but that's okay.

00:39:14.778 --> 00:39:16.358
<v SPEAKER_2>We won't get into quantity.

00:39:16.358 --> 00:39:17.558
<v SPEAKER_2>It's quality.

00:39:19.378 --> 00:39:25.998
<v SPEAKER_3>FT, why don't we turn our attention to the script of The Sweet Smell of Success?

00:39:26.778 --> 00:39:29.838
<v SPEAKER_3>What's your opinion, your thoughts on the script?

00:39:29.838 --> 00:39:50.018
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, what occurred to me was the last podcast we had on The Departed, you had made a remark about why that script was so great, was that the great lines weren't just sort of like plopped in there with the old headlights on them, like, you know, going like, oh, here's a great line, here's a great line.

00:39:50.018 --> 00:39:54.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Whereas in this script, it's like, I would say, 85% great lines.

00:39:54.838 --> 00:39:57.138
<v SPEAKER_2>There's one after the next.

00:39:57.138 --> 00:39:58.538
<v SPEAKER_2>It's amazing to me.

00:39:58.538 --> 00:40:04.238
<v SPEAKER_2>And it was all the more amazing because of what you had said, you know, which I agreed with, you know, it's really usually true.

00:40:04.238 --> 00:40:10.118
<v SPEAKER_2>This being the counter example, in my opinion, the script is like, it is woven right in where it's natural.

00:40:10.118 --> 00:40:15.078
<v SPEAKER_2>These people are wise ass, you know, they say this kind of stuff and it really worked for me.

00:40:15.078 --> 00:40:16.278
<v SPEAKER_2>It was great.

00:40:17.898 --> 00:40:19.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Excellent points.

00:40:19.178 --> 00:40:21.398
<v SPEAKER_3>Let me see if I have something here.

00:40:23.218 --> 00:40:24.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Excellent point, FT.

00:40:24.658 --> 00:40:26.398
<v SPEAKER_3>Are we kids or what?

00:40:28.798 --> 00:40:29.578
<v SPEAKER_2>Is that right?

00:40:29.578 --> 00:40:30.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Good one.

00:40:30.178 --> 00:40:30.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:40:30.738 --> 00:40:32.318
<v SPEAKER_3>Are we kids or what?

00:40:32.318 --> 00:40:33.078
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:40:33.918 --> 00:40:35.958
<v SPEAKER_2>Burt says that after the Senator, right?

00:40:35.958 --> 00:40:37.558
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:40:37.558 --> 00:40:44.818
<v SPEAKER_5>This man is not for you, Harvey, and you shouldn't be seen in public with him, because that's another part of a press agent's life.

00:40:44.818 --> 00:40:49.878
<v SPEAKER_5>They dig up scandal about prominent people and shovel it thin among colonists who give them space.

00:40:49.878 --> 00:40:52.858
<v SPEAKER_4>There seems to be some illusion here that escapes me.

00:40:54.038 --> 00:40:55.978
<v SPEAKER_5>We're friends, Harvey.

00:40:55.978 --> 00:40:59.798
<v SPEAKER_5>We go as far back as when you were a fresh kid congressman, don't we?

00:40:59.798 --> 00:41:02.098
<v SPEAKER_4>Why is it that everything you say sounds like a threat?

00:41:03.118 --> 00:41:05.978
<v SPEAKER_5>Maybe it's a mannerism, because I don't threaten friends.

00:41:05.978 --> 00:41:08.918
<v SPEAKER_5>But why furnish your enemies with ammunition?

00:41:08.918 --> 00:41:13.278
<v SPEAKER_5>You're a family man, Harvey, and someday, God willing, you may want to be president.

00:41:13.278 --> 00:41:22.038
<v SPEAKER_5>And here you are out in the open, where any hip person knows that this one is toting that one around for you.

00:41:23.238 --> 00:41:24.838
<v SPEAKER_5>Are we kids or what?

00:41:24.838 --> 00:41:48.698
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, I think you're right there, FT., in that that's what saves the unnaturalists, the staginess of this dialogue is only saved by the milieu, as the French would say, in that these characters are the writers, they're show business people, so you can almost buy them speaking in this way.

00:41:48.698 --> 00:42:16.678
<v SPEAKER_3>But without that, and even with that, I'd have to go back to what I was saying in the last podcast, and I think I've said it before, the danger of scripts where these lines are these stand out lines, these stand out quotable lines, they end up pulling you out of the movie, it's like the spotlight goes on the writer.

00:42:17.098 --> 00:42:28.558
<v SPEAKER_3>And that is what is, that was such a good point you made FT, that's what makes, this film is like 85% great lines, but you buy it coming out of these characters.

00:42:28.558 --> 00:42:38.558
<v SPEAKER_3>And I would have to say you buy it coming out of the direction of Sandy Mackendrick and you buy it coming out of, you know, particularly Burt Lancaster.

00:42:38.558 --> 00:42:44.218
<v SPEAKER_3>And I would argue you would have bought it even more if it was Orson Welles or just as much.

00:42:44.218 --> 00:42:57.738
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't agree, but either way, you know, again, one of the things that, you know, I knew people, I knew two guys that had almost this private language, I wouldn't call it a private language, but they had their own.

00:42:57.978 --> 00:43:00.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Are you talking about you and me?

00:43:00.458 --> 00:43:17.538
<v SPEAKER_2>Back in the day more, you know, in a way, two other guys in college, that was, it was so peculiar to hear them talking, you know, and they would have like pat phrases like correct me if I'm wrong, that I swear they lifted from this, and what's the one from the apartment, buddy boy?

00:43:17.538 --> 00:43:20.438
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, that was a big thing to have, you know, anyhow.

00:43:21.618 --> 00:43:32.198
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I found that the symbiotic relationship in the language here, you know, these two guys, Tony Curtis and, you know, Falco and JJ, they speak their relationship.

00:43:32.198 --> 00:43:33.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:43:33.438 --> 00:43:45.258
<v SPEAKER_3>I would say, even though you know, I'm a black and white type of person, and I would say both kinds of script writing have their place.

00:43:45.538 --> 00:43:59.878
<v SPEAKER_3>So, screenwriting that is, has incredible lines and musical language does have its place, but I almost kind of see them in two, like, so, Exhibit A is David Mamet.

00:43:59.878 --> 00:44:11.638
<v SPEAKER_3>And I never realized until after this viewing of The Sweet Smell of Success, how much Mamet must have been influenced by this screenplay.

00:44:11.978 --> 00:44:12.598
<v SPEAKER_3>It's so Mamet.

00:44:12.598 --> 00:44:13.298
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I thought that.

00:44:13.298 --> 00:44:14.678
<v SPEAKER_2>I was going to bring that up, buddy.

00:44:14.678 --> 00:44:25.438
<v SPEAKER_3>And one of my favorite lines from David Mamet's House of Games is Joe Mont, is a line that I feel could have been in, in Sweet Smell of Success.

00:44:25.438 --> 00:44:32.058
<v SPEAKER_3>So, it's at the end of House of Games, Lindsey Krauss shoots Joe Montegna in the legs.

00:44:32.058 --> 00:44:36.758
<v SPEAKER_3>And Montegna looks at her and says, You're a bad pony.

00:44:36.758 --> 00:44:38.098
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't think I'm going to bet on you.

00:44:39.458 --> 00:44:42.058
<v SPEAKER_3>Which feels like it could have been in this.

00:44:42.218 --> 00:44:44.878
<v SPEAKER_3>It's like the Arsenic Cookie line.

00:44:44.878 --> 00:44:46.118
<v SPEAKER_5>You got the boy's jaw back.

00:44:46.118 --> 00:44:46.858
<v SPEAKER_4>Okay.

00:44:46.858 --> 00:44:48.438
<v SPEAKER_4>But he's not going to accept your favor.

00:44:48.438 --> 00:44:51.978
<v SPEAKER_2>The manager, yeah, but not that boy.

00:44:51.978 --> 00:44:54.278
<v SPEAKER_5>What does this boy got that Susie likes?

00:44:54.278 --> 00:44:55.298
<v SPEAKER_5>Integrity.

00:44:55.298 --> 00:44:56.218
<v SPEAKER_5>Acute.

00:44:56.218 --> 00:44:57.418
<v SPEAKER_5>Like indigestion.

00:44:58.658 --> 00:45:00.258
<v SPEAKER_5>What does this mean?

00:45:00.258 --> 00:45:00.978
<v SPEAKER_5>Integrity.

00:45:01.038 --> 00:45:03.298
<v SPEAKER_5>A pocket full of firecrackers.

00:45:03.298 --> 00:45:05.878
<v SPEAKER_5>Waiting for a match.

00:45:07.778 --> 00:45:09.158
<v SPEAKER_5>You know, it's a new wrinkle.

00:45:09.158 --> 00:45:12.618
<v SPEAKER_5>To tell you the truth, I never thought I'd make a killing on some guy's integrity.

00:45:15.218 --> 00:45:17.378
<v SPEAKER_5>I'd hate to take a bite out of you.

00:45:17.378 --> 00:45:19.618
<v SPEAKER_5>You're a cookie full of arsenic.

00:45:21.018 --> 00:45:36.338
<v SPEAKER_3>But the point I was trying to get to, so when I watch House of Games or other Mamet films, or I've never seen a Mamet play, I don't think on stage, but I've read the scripts, it's like, okay, it's Mamet.

00:45:38.118 --> 00:45:40.658
<v SPEAKER_3>I cannot treat this dialogue as real.

00:45:40.658 --> 00:45:42.538
<v SPEAKER_3>It's not the way people talk.

00:45:42.538 --> 00:45:44.578
<v SPEAKER_3>It's its own language.

00:45:45.498 --> 00:45:46.758
<v SPEAKER_3>And I can appreciate it for that.

00:45:46.878 --> 00:45:52.058
<v SPEAKER_3>And I think with this film, you kind of have to go into it with that as well.

00:45:52.058 --> 00:46:04.058
<v SPEAKER_3>But it's a dangerous road to go down, because unless you're Clifford Odets, unless you're David Mamet, a screenwriter who tries to just make a script of all these, wow, incredible lines, it ain't going to work.

00:46:04.058 --> 00:46:07.378
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, it's the difference between incredible lines and a world.

00:46:07.378 --> 00:46:10.198
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, you know, language creates a world, you know.

00:46:10.198 --> 00:46:17.718
<v SPEAKER_2>And just because most of the language in regular scripts is, you know, our everyday word or the thriller world or the Film Noir world.

00:46:17.718 --> 00:46:19.658
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, Mamet is an example.

00:46:19.658 --> 00:46:21.998
<v SPEAKER_2>Somewhat Bresson is another example.

00:46:21.998 --> 00:46:24.578
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, you know, they do create these other worlds.

00:46:24.578 --> 00:46:26.778
<v SPEAKER_2>This movie, obviously, you know.

00:46:27.338 --> 00:46:29.578
<v SPEAKER_2>So language is a world, you know.

00:46:29.578 --> 00:46:32.178
<v SPEAKER_2>And there's room for, as you said, there's room for both.

00:46:32.178 --> 00:46:32.738
<v SPEAKER_2>I like it.

00:46:32.738 --> 00:46:35.458
<v SPEAKER_2>It's, thank God, you know.

00:46:35.458 --> 00:46:39.418
<v SPEAKER_3>So, yeah, this Odeft script definitely lifts language.

00:46:42.138 --> 00:46:52.738
<v SPEAKER_3>It's interesting, though, my question for you, FT., is how much of the script that was shot was Lehman and how much was Clifford Odets?

00:46:53.918 --> 00:46:55.618
<v SPEAKER_2>Boy, that's a hard one.

00:46:55.698 --> 00:47:06.998
<v SPEAKER_2>It's Lehman and his story Backbone, Odets with a, let me put it this way, in the book, it starts with that these smears has already happened.

00:47:06.998 --> 00:47:15.258
<v SPEAKER_2>So there's no, the intro is a totally different thing with Sidney and his mother and his brother, and his whole weird background.

00:47:15.258 --> 00:47:20.678
<v SPEAKER_2>But it starts with the smear, and interestingly enough, the smear, he goes to both of the writers.

00:47:20.678 --> 00:47:22.298
<v SPEAKER_2>Both of them happened at the same time.

00:47:22.578 --> 00:47:26.038
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, so, Odets just didn't add the language.

00:47:26.038 --> 00:47:28.898
<v SPEAKER_2>Odets added a bunch of plot stuff.

00:47:28.898 --> 00:47:29.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:47:29.098 --> 00:47:36.818
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, also in the story, I would say that Sidney is more of a number two to JJ, less of a lackey.

00:47:36.818 --> 00:47:39.478
<v SPEAKER_2>Susan definitely has backbone.

00:47:39.478 --> 00:47:40.538
<v SPEAKER_2>She knows what's up from-

00:47:40.538 --> 00:47:41.898
<v SPEAKER_3>You're saying, you're saying-

00:47:41.898 --> 00:47:42.418
<v SPEAKER_2>The characters.

00:47:42.418 --> 00:47:43.178
<v SPEAKER_3>You're saying in the short story.

00:47:43.178 --> 00:47:44.058
<v SPEAKER_2>In the short story, yes.

00:47:44.098 --> 00:47:46.758
<v SPEAKER_2>Susan has, she knows what's up from the start.

00:47:46.758 --> 00:47:48.978
<v SPEAKER_2>Matter of fact, she already has a marriage license.

00:47:48.978 --> 00:47:50.498
<v SPEAKER_2>So that's a fate incomplete.

00:47:52.058 --> 00:47:53.378
<v SPEAKER_2>Steve is a crooner.

00:47:53.378 --> 00:47:57.298
<v SPEAKER_2>He's a singer like Sinatra Pericomo.

00:47:57.298 --> 00:47:58.778
<v SPEAKER_2>A bit more gee whiz.

00:47:58.778 --> 00:48:02.878
<v SPEAKER_2>And interestingly there, there's no animosity with Sydney.

00:48:02.878 --> 00:48:04.198
<v SPEAKER_2>Same with The Detective.

00:48:04.198 --> 00:48:07.478
<v SPEAKER_2>No fat slob, none of that stuff.

00:48:07.478 --> 00:48:08.078
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:48:08.078 --> 00:48:09.798
<v SPEAKER_3>So I'm going to stop you right here.

00:48:09.798 --> 00:48:11.498
<v SPEAKER_2>Just one more interesting thing.

00:48:11.538 --> 00:48:18.898
<v SPEAKER_2>Sydney and JJ's secretary, Mary, is a younger woman and they are romantically involved in the story.

00:48:18.898 --> 00:48:24.518
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, which is, I think, a subtext in the film that they had once had an affair.

00:48:24.518 --> 00:48:32.018
<v SPEAKER_3>And she, the secretary, obviously is carrying a flame for Sydney, which is why she puts up with not getting paid.

00:48:32.018 --> 00:48:35.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Wait, wait, I'm talking about JJ's secretary, buddy.

00:48:35.458 --> 00:48:36.538
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, OK, sorry.

00:48:36.538 --> 00:48:38.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, she's a younger woman.

00:48:38.458 --> 00:48:42.998
<v SPEAKER_2>And some of that relationship with Rita, the blonde, you know, but meet me at two in the morning.

00:48:42.998 --> 00:48:46.178
<v SPEAKER_2>Some of that whole business is really transferred from that relationship.

00:48:46.178 --> 00:48:46.418
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:48:46.418 --> 00:48:47.178
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:48:47.178 --> 00:48:47.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:48:47.838 --> 00:48:59.098
<v SPEAKER_3>What I was trying to interrupt and I didn't mean to interrupt before, when you said you were talking about the cop Kelo, and you said somebody else, there wasn't a conflict there.

00:48:59.098 --> 00:49:00.478
<v SPEAKER_3>Who was the other thing?

00:49:00.478 --> 00:49:02.978
<v SPEAKER_2>There was between Steve and Sydney.

00:49:02.978 --> 00:49:04.638
<v SPEAKER_2>There's no animosity.

00:49:04.698 --> 00:49:06.038
<v SPEAKER_3>No, there's no conflict.

00:49:06.038 --> 00:49:09.098
<v SPEAKER_3>I think that's what Odets, again, coming out of the theater.

00:49:09.098 --> 00:49:10.518
<v SPEAKER_3>Conflict, conflict.

00:49:10.518 --> 00:49:11.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Conflict, conflict.

00:49:11.838 --> 00:49:13.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Everything comes out of conflict.

00:49:14.198 --> 00:49:16.378
<v SPEAKER_3>I would submit, and I can't say...

00:49:16.378 --> 00:49:18.818
<v SPEAKER_2>Mackenzie, I'll say, and Mackenzie.

00:49:18.818 --> 00:49:20.078
<v SPEAKER_3>Right, yes.

00:49:20.078 --> 00:49:47.098
<v SPEAKER_3>I can't say it 100% here, but in the Mackenzie book, he does a comparison between Lehmann's script, Lehmann's first movie script, not the short story, Lehmann's first draft, and Odets' final draft, and he puts them side by side, and based on that, and it's not the whole script, basically all the lines are Odets, and not Lehmann.

00:49:47.098 --> 00:50:02.998
<v SPEAKER_3>So I think the story idea, the idea of doing something based on Winchell, was all Lehmann, but Odets definitely punched up the conflict, the drama, the characters, and the language, the dialogue is Odets.

00:50:02.998 --> 00:50:05.018
<v SPEAKER_2>In the ending, there's another difference.

00:50:05.018 --> 00:50:08.398
<v SPEAKER_2>She does not commit suicide or try to, at all.

00:50:08.398 --> 00:50:11.318
<v SPEAKER_2>Matter of fact, she says, is this what is expected of me?

00:50:11.318 --> 00:50:13.778
<v SPEAKER_2>That I would jump out the window over this?

00:50:13.778 --> 00:50:17.558
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, much more mature, less of a milk toast.

00:50:17.558 --> 00:50:31.118
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, really nice to see, you know, because that whole fifties, femininistic bullshit, Jesus, it just, and anyhow, we might talk about acting, but Susie, we will, we will get to acting.

00:50:31.118 --> 00:50:38.378
<v SPEAKER_3>And the end, apparently the ending, they just couldn't get, you know, it was like they couldn't get the ending right.

00:50:38.378 --> 00:50:41.798
<v SPEAKER_3>And they didn't have an ending for the picture, I think, right up to the last minute.

00:50:41.798 --> 00:50:47.018
<v SPEAKER_3>And Odets did, you know, scores of endings for it.

00:50:47.018 --> 00:50:53.398
<v SPEAKER_3>Just one example, though, of what Odets brought to the party.

00:50:53.398 --> 00:50:56.038
<v SPEAKER_2>Do you mean the Communist Party?

00:50:56.038 --> 00:51:00.758
<v SPEAKER_3>No, I meant the nice bottle of French wine he brought to the party.

00:51:00.758 --> 00:51:02.398
<v SPEAKER_2>New York State wine.

00:51:04.018 --> 00:51:07.418
<v SPEAKER_3>So the first scene at the 21 Club.

00:51:07.418 --> 00:51:09.558
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:51:09.698 --> 00:51:15.458
<v SPEAKER_3>And I want to talk a little bit about that scene later, but just one little bit, or we'll get, let's transition into it.

00:51:15.458 --> 00:51:19.278
<v SPEAKER_3>But first, here's what Odets brought to that, which I think is brilliant.

00:51:19.278 --> 00:51:31.398
<v SPEAKER_3>In Lehmann's writing, Falco, the Tony Curtis character, goes into 21 and goes to hunt and sits down at Hunsecker's table.

00:51:31.398 --> 00:51:37.898
<v SPEAKER_3>In the Odets version, he creates this whole thing that Falco walks in and says to the maitre d, is he here?

00:51:37.898 --> 00:51:39.158
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

00:51:39.218 --> 00:51:49.798
<v SPEAKER_3>And the maitre d says, yeah, he's here with, you know, the boy and sets him, and a senator, which immediately, to the viewers, oh, he's with a senator, wow, he must be some powerful guy.

00:51:50.158 --> 00:51:56.358
<v SPEAKER_3>And Tony Curtis then doesn't go to the table, but goes to the phone booth and calls Hunsecker.

00:51:56.358 --> 00:52:02.078
<v SPEAKER_3>So our first introduction to Hunsecker is a voice over a phone.

00:52:02.298 --> 00:52:07.438
<v SPEAKER_3>And a very menacing voice at that saying, JJ, it's Sidney.

00:52:07.438 --> 00:52:08.458
<v SPEAKER_5>Could you come up for a minute?

00:52:09.138 --> 00:52:10.438
<v SPEAKER_5>Could I come out?

00:52:10.438 --> 00:52:11.558
<v SPEAKER_4>No.

00:52:11.558 --> 00:52:12.878
<v SPEAKER_2>I have to talk to you, JJ.

00:52:12.878 --> 00:52:14.098
<v SPEAKER_5>That's why.

00:52:14.098 --> 00:52:15.218
<v SPEAKER_5>You had to do something for me.

00:52:15.218 --> 00:52:17.458
<v SPEAKER_4>You didn't do it.

00:52:17.458 --> 00:52:19.158
<v SPEAKER_5>Could I come in for a minute?

00:52:19.158 --> 00:52:19.778
<v SPEAKER_5>No.

00:52:19.778 --> 00:52:20.518
<v SPEAKER_5>You're dead, son.

00:52:20.518 --> 00:52:22.578
<v SPEAKER_5>Get yourself buried.

00:52:22.578 --> 00:52:26.598
<v SPEAKER_3>So in the audience, we don't even see this guy and we hear this voice.

00:52:26.598 --> 00:52:30.098
<v SPEAKER_3>And we can tell how afraid Sidney is of him.

00:52:30.098 --> 00:52:46.098
<v SPEAKER_3>So setting up that anticipation and then the drama of then, in spite of that, Tony Curtis venturing to go to the table and then Hunsecker says to the maitre d'Mac, get this man out of here.

00:52:46.098 --> 00:52:47.218
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't want him at the table.

00:52:47.218 --> 00:52:51.798
<v SPEAKER_3>All this friggin drama to get Tony Curtis to the table.

00:52:51.798 --> 00:52:53.338
<v SPEAKER_3>And it's just brilliant.

00:52:53.338 --> 00:53:02.258
<v SPEAKER_3>Not only to get the drama of getting Tony Curtis to the table, but again, the way it sets up the Burt Lancaster, the Hunsecker character is just brilliant.

00:53:02.258 --> 00:53:02.578
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:53:02.578 --> 00:53:11.218
<v SPEAKER_2>But what's interesting is when you really go back to the beginning of the film, the set up of JJ, the Burt Lancaster character, starts first with what?

00:53:11.218 --> 00:53:13.818
<v SPEAKER_2>The big billboard on the trucks in the newspaper.

00:53:13.818 --> 00:53:17.198
<v SPEAKER_2>So you see his name first.

00:53:17.198 --> 00:53:19.878
<v SPEAKER_2>Then you see a picture of him in the paper.

00:53:19.878 --> 00:53:20.798
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, you see his glasses.

00:53:20.918 --> 00:53:22.618
<v SPEAKER_2>You see a picture of him when...

00:53:22.878 --> 00:53:26.318
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, sorry, the first thing, the billboard is not just the name, but the glasses.

00:53:26.318 --> 00:53:26.798
<v SPEAKER_2>It's his glasses, right.

00:53:26.798 --> 00:53:27.418
<v SPEAKER_2>His eyes.

00:53:27.418 --> 00:53:28.658
<v SPEAKER_2>His eyes on New York.

00:53:28.658 --> 00:53:30.118
<v SPEAKER_2>Eyes on Broadway, right.

00:53:30.118 --> 00:53:35.538
<v SPEAKER_2>But then you see when Falco is opening the seat for he has an item in there, you see his picture.

00:53:35.538 --> 00:53:37.498
<v SPEAKER_2>So then you see what he looks like.

00:53:37.498 --> 00:53:42.058
<v SPEAKER_2>And then, and that's where I was going to say what you said about the 21 Club scene.

00:53:42.058 --> 00:53:42.738
<v SPEAKER_2>It's brilliant.

00:53:42.738 --> 00:53:50.798
<v SPEAKER_2>We don't, he delays, delays, you know, the live action, the real human being of Burt, and we only hear his voice.

00:53:50.798 --> 00:53:53.598
<v SPEAKER_2>So what a great slow disclosure of a character.

00:53:53.598 --> 00:53:54.938
<v SPEAKER_2>Never done before like this.

00:53:54.938 --> 00:53:55.918
<v SPEAKER_2>Fantastic.

00:53:55.918 --> 00:53:56.478
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:53:56.478 --> 00:54:01.578
<v SPEAKER_3>But it comes from Odets with a, you know, and again, Odets was working with Sandy Mackendrick.

00:54:01.578 --> 00:54:03.758
<v SPEAKER_3>So let's give credit to both of them.

00:54:04.018 --> 00:54:11.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Let's talk a little bit more about that first scene at 21, which I think is one of the great scenes in cinema.

00:54:11.338 --> 00:54:13.718
<v SPEAKER_3>Any other comments on that scene, FT?

00:54:13.718 --> 00:54:14.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Because I do have a few.

00:54:14.438 --> 00:54:15.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, make a few.

00:54:15.738 --> 00:54:17.378
<v SPEAKER_2>I gotta gather.

00:54:17.558 --> 00:54:26.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, the first thing again coming out of Odets is in Lehmann's draft, the manny, the agent and the girl, were basically just sitting at the table.

00:54:26.838 --> 00:54:27.758
<v SPEAKER_3>They were just props.

00:54:27.758 --> 00:54:40.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Odets brings them into this, you know, Mackendrick talks about it as triangulation, ricochets, where all these characters, all these conflicts are going around and around the table.

00:54:40.898 --> 00:54:43.578
<v SPEAKER_3>And it's really pretty phenomenal.

00:54:43.578 --> 00:55:06.198
<v SPEAKER_3>But the one thing I wanted to talk about in that 21 scene, and sorry if it's a little bit nerdy and inside baseballish, but the brilliance of Mackendrick's direction, which apparently was indicated in the script by Odets, of his use of point of view in a specific moment where the JJ.

00:55:06.198 --> 00:55:11.598
<v SPEAKER_3>Hunsecker character drops the hammer on the senator.

00:55:11.598 --> 00:55:24.358
<v SPEAKER_3>And again, if people haven't seen the film, which would be unfortunate at this point, the senator is with this young girl sitting at the table and this agent is the beard for this woman.

00:55:26.378 --> 00:55:30.038
<v SPEAKER_2>There's three people opposite Burt at the table.

00:55:30.038 --> 00:55:30.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:55:30.238 --> 00:55:38.838
<v SPEAKER_3>But the point is that the girl is with the senator, but he's trying to make it look like she's a starlet with the agent who's sitting at the table.

00:55:38.838 --> 00:55:39.598
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:55:39.598 --> 00:55:53.998
<v SPEAKER_3>So what the setup is, which is just brilliant, we're on Lancaster's face and he says, you're out here in public or any person can see how this one, and his head starts turning frame left.

00:55:53.998 --> 00:55:57.978
<v SPEAKER_3>With that, we reverse and we go to Manny.

00:55:57.978 --> 00:55:59.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Then I think we go back.

00:55:59.098 --> 00:56:00.338
<v SPEAKER_2>No, you pan.

00:56:00.338 --> 00:56:02.218
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a pan to the woman.

00:56:02.218 --> 00:56:02.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.

00:56:02.458 --> 00:56:04.278
<v SPEAKER_3>Then the pan to the girl.

00:56:04.278 --> 00:56:04.858
<v SPEAKER_2>It's a pan.

00:56:04.858 --> 00:56:06.438
<v SPEAKER_2>That's what's so cool about it.

00:56:06.438 --> 00:56:08.238
<v SPEAKER_2>It pans over a little bit, holds.

00:56:08.238 --> 00:56:10.118
<v SPEAKER_3>Then back to Burt's face again.

00:56:10.178 --> 00:56:10.698
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

00:56:11.198 --> 00:56:27.058
<v SPEAKER_3>All clearly set up from Burt's, Hounsecker's point of view, which was some of my criticisms on the work in The Master where some of the viewpoints were, we didn't know really what we were seeing.

00:56:27.958 --> 00:56:30.258
<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe I'm just not hip enough to appreciate that.

00:56:30.298 --> 00:56:31.638
<v SPEAKER_3>Any hip person.

00:56:31.638 --> 00:56:37.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Maybe my cinematic language never moved forward from 1957.

00:56:38.898 --> 00:56:41.018
<v SPEAKER_3>So it's just brilliant in that whole scene.

00:56:41.018 --> 00:56:45.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Again, the dialogue, it's-

00:56:45.898 --> 00:56:50.878
<v SPEAKER_2>You know what was also interesting about that, how it moves from subject to subject with the discomfort.

00:56:52.158 --> 00:56:54.718
<v SPEAKER_2>Tell me a little bit more about what a press agent is.

00:56:54.758 --> 00:56:57.518
<v SPEAKER_2>The Senator asks to save face at one point.

00:56:57.518 --> 00:56:59.838
<v SPEAKER_2>He knows where Burt's going with that.

00:56:59.838 --> 00:57:00.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

00:57:00.018 --> 00:57:02.298
<v SPEAKER_3>But again, the brilliance of it, the only reason-

00:57:02.298 --> 00:57:03.818
<v SPEAKER_3>Again, it's exposition.

00:57:03.818 --> 00:57:08.538
<v SPEAKER_3>But the reason the Senator can bring it up is he's trying to get the attention off of the girl.

00:57:08.538 --> 00:57:09.018
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

00:57:09.018 --> 00:57:10.098
<v SPEAKER_3>JJ is asking about the girl.

00:57:10.098 --> 00:57:13.898
<v SPEAKER_3>So the Senator tries to change things by saying, hey, what does a press agent do?

00:57:13.898 --> 00:57:30.518
<v SPEAKER_3>Which then sets JJ up for this speech, this talk about what a press agent does, but does it in this conflict-driven way because he's totally humiliating, you know, Falco, the Tony Curtis character, is sitting there in the frame the whole time being humiliated.

00:57:30.518 --> 00:57:32.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, but he's not.

00:57:33.218 --> 00:57:34.018
<v SPEAKER_2>He's taking it.

00:57:34.018 --> 00:57:36.758
<v SPEAKER_2>It's also, you know, it's an interesting thing that you said humiliated.

00:57:36.758 --> 00:57:40.398
<v SPEAKER_2>No, no, I mean, it's humiliating, but he doesn't give a shit.

00:57:40.398 --> 00:57:42.898
<v SPEAKER_2>He just sits there and takes it, and he just looks at it and blinks.

00:57:42.898 --> 00:57:44.198
<v SPEAKER_3>I disagree with you there.

00:57:44.198 --> 00:57:50.698
<v SPEAKER_3>As evidenced by, he sits there, right, and listening to the speech about, here's what a press agent does.

00:57:50.698 --> 00:57:50.958
<v SPEAKER_5>Mr.

00:57:50.958 --> 00:57:55.258
<v SPEAKER_5>Falco, let it be said at once, is a man of 40 faces, not one.

00:57:55.258 --> 00:57:58.638
<v SPEAKER_5>None too pretty and all deceptive.

00:57:58.638 --> 00:58:00.258
<v SPEAKER_5>You see that grin?

00:58:00.258 --> 00:58:02.438
<v SPEAKER_5>That's the, uh...

00:58:02.438 --> 00:58:04.938
<v SPEAKER_5>That's the charming speed urchin face.

00:58:04.938 --> 00:58:06.218
<v SPEAKER_5>It's part of his helpless act.

00:58:06.218 --> 00:58:08.578
<v SPEAKER_5>He throws himself upon your mercy.

00:58:08.578 --> 00:58:10.758
<v SPEAKER_5>He's got a half dozen faces for the ladies.

00:58:10.758 --> 00:58:15.658
<v SPEAKER_5>But the one I like, the really cute one, is the quick, dependable chap.

00:58:15.658 --> 00:58:17.898
<v SPEAKER_5>Nothing he won't do for you in a pinch.

00:58:17.898 --> 00:58:18.538
<v SPEAKER_5>So he says.

00:58:20.538 --> 00:58:20.758
<v SPEAKER_5>Mr.

00:58:20.758 --> 00:58:29.998
<v SPEAKER_5>Falco, whom I did not invite to sit at this table tonight, is a hungry press agent, and fully up to all the tricks of his very slimy trade.

00:58:29.998 --> 00:58:31.458
<v SPEAKER_5>Match me, Sidney.

00:58:33.098 --> 00:58:35.498
<v SPEAKER_5>Not quite this man, is JJ.

00:58:35.678 --> 00:58:42.838
<v SPEAKER_3>That is the evidence that Sidney is not, is none too happy with the way he's just been talking about.

00:58:42.838 --> 00:58:43.338
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, wait a minute.

00:58:43.338 --> 00:58:46.598
<v SPEAKER_2>There's a difference between none too happy and being humiliated.

00:58:46.838 --> 00:58:50.838
<v SPEAKER_2>As I said, it's a humiliating, seriously, it's a humiliating line.

00:58:51.658 --> 00:58:53.118
<v SPEAKER_2>But wait, wait, wait, Ken.

00:58:53.118 --> 00:58:55.958
<v SPEAKER_2>JJ was saying humiliating shit all along.

00:58:55.958 --> 00:58:59.098
<v SPEAKER_2>Sidney here isn't kind of an actor, he says.

00:58:59.098 --> 00:59:00.758
<v SPEAKER_2>A man of 40 faces.

00:59:01.798 --> 00:59:05.178
<v SPEAKER_2>And here's the nice little street urchin face.

00:59:05.178 --> 00:59:05.878
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

00:59:06.298 --> 00:59:08.178
<v SPEAKER_2>So he's humiliating the entire time.

00:59:08.178 --> 00:59:11.358
<v SPEAKER_2>So the fact that Tony finally stands up to him.

00:59:11.358 --> 00:59:12.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:59:12.178 --> 00:59:12.418
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

00:59:13.498 --> 00:59:17.638
<v SPEAKER_2>Doesn't mean that he's humiliated in that.

00:59:17.638 --> 00:59:18.978
<v SPEAKER_3>Frank, let me put this in terms.

00:59:18.978 --> 00:59:19.838
<v SPEAKER_2>That I can understand.

00:59:19.838 --> 00:59:20.678
<v SPEAKER_3>You can understand.

00:59:20.678 --> 00:59:21.398
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:59:21.398 --> 00:59:24.958
<v SPEAKER_3>If you were nice to me, I would light your cigarette.

00:59:24.958 --> 00:59:29.058
<v SPEAKER_3>If you weren't nice to me, I wouldn't light your cigarette.

00:59:29.398 --> 00:59:31.258
<v SPEAKER_3>It's called the match test.

00:59:32.718 --> 00:59:33.638
<v SPEAKER_3>Should we move on?

00:59:33.638 --> 00:59:35.738
<v SPEAKER_2>I think we should.

00:59:35.738 --> 00:59:36.778
<v SPEAKER_2>I hope we could.

00:59:36.778 --> 00:59:38.018
<v SPEAKER_2>Can we?

00:59:38.018 --> 00:59:38.558
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:59:39.298 --> 00:59:40.258
<v SPEAKER_3>I have another question for you.

00:59:40.258 --> 00:59:40.618
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm ready.

00:59:40.618 --> 00:59:42.098
<v SPEAKER_2>Boy, oh boy, oh boy.

00:59:42.098 --> 00:59:43.978
<v SPEAKER_2>So wait, am I supposed to ring the bell?

00:59:43.978 --> 00:59:47.278
<v SPEAKER_2>I need a point of order, as I used to say in the McCarthy hearings.

00:59:47.278 --> 00:59:47.958
<v SPEAKER_2>Point of order.

00:59:47.958 --> 00:59:49.118
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

00:59:49.218 --> 00:59:52.858
<v SPEAKER_2>Because I remember them as a kid, believe it or not, when I was really little.

00:59:52.858 --> 00:59:54.378
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, go ahead.

00:59:54.378 --> 00:59:58.198
<v SPEAKER_2>Should I ring the bell at any more points throughout the broadcast here or the show?

00:59:58.198 --> 00:59:58.498
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

00:59:58.538 --> 00:59:59.498
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, if it's relevant.

00:59:59.498 --> 01:00:00.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.

01:00:00.678 --> 01:00:06.738
<v SPEAKER_3>No, if I slip in a line, but if I'm obviously quoting the line from the film, then there's no need to ring the bell.

01:00:06.778 --> 01:00:07.558
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm using mention.

01:00:07.558 --> 01:00:08.898
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, let's go.

01:00:08.898 --> 01:00:10.558
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

01:00:10.558 --> 01:00:12.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Question for you, FT.

01:00:12.098 --> 01:00:13.798
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, answer.

01:00:15.818 --> 01:00:18.118
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay, good job.

01:00:19.018 --> 01:00:23.598
<v SPEAKER_3>Is the film, The Sweet Smell of Success, a Film Noir?

01:00:23.598 --> 01:00:25.138
<v SPEAKER_2>I knew what you were going to say.

01:00:25.138 --> 01:00:26.078
<v SPEAKER_3>What was I going to say?

01:00:26.078 --> 01:00:27.538
<v SPEAKER_2>A Film Noir.

01:00:27.538 --> 01:00:28.358
<v SPEAKER_3>That's not what I was going to say.

01:00:28.358 --> 01:00:29.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, it was.

01:00:30.578 --> 01:00:33.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, is The Sweet Smell of Success a Film Noir?

01:00:33.098 --> 01:00:34.038
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes or no?

01:00:34.038 --> 01:00:35.498
<v SPEAKER_5>No.

01:00:35.498 --> 01:00:35.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Why?

01:00:37.558 --> 01:00:39.138
<v SPEAKER_2>It's not a crime story, really.

01:00:39.138 --> 01:00:40.918
<v SPEAKER_3>Hold on, hold on, hold on here, hold on.

01:00:40.918 --> 01:00:42.318
<v SPEAKER_2>What is a crime story?

01:00:42.478 --> 01:00:45.118
<v SPEAKER_3>Hold on here, hold on.

01:00:45.118 --> 01:00:46.938
<v SPEAKER_3>Don't remove the gangplank, FT.

01:00:46.938 --> 01:00:49.198
<v SPEAKER_3>You may want to get back on board.

01:00:51.758 --> 01:00:54.258
<v SPEAKER_2>That means it's a sailor story.

01:00:54.258 --> 01:00:55.118
<v SPEAKER_3>Hold on, hold on, hold on.

01:00:55.118 --> 01:00:56.618
<v SPEAKER_3>Let me get rid of my paper.

01:00:56.618 --> 01:00:58.758
<v SPEAKER_3>But go ahead, FT.

01:00:58.758 --> 01:01:02.098
<v SPEAKER_3>I want to watch you run the 50-hour dash where their legs cut off.

01:01:02.298 --> 01:01:03.398
<v SPEAKER_3>Go ahead.

01:01:04.878 --> 01:01:06.018
<v SPEAKER_3>Go ahead.

01:01:06.018 --> 01:01:06.578
<v SPEAKER_2>You know what?

01:01:06.578 --> 01:01:07.438
<v SPEAKER_2>You're so funny.

01:01:07.438 --> 01:01:09.098
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm a pretzel.

01:01:09.098 --> 01:01:09.578
<v SPEAKER_3>No, go ahead.

01:01:10.718 --> 01:01:13.958
<v SPEAKER_3>Why is this not a Film Noir?

01:01:13.958 --> 01:01:15.318
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's not in the genre.

01:01:15.318 --> 01:01:16.778
<v SPEAKER_2>It's Film Noir-ish.

01:01:16.778 --> 01:01:17.838
<v SPEAKER_2>It looks it.

01:01:17.838 --> 01:01:19.498
<v SPEAKER_2>And yeah, there's a crime.

01:01:19.498 --> 01:01:21.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely.

01:01:21.458 --> 01:01:24.898
<v SPEAKER_2>But it's not the pattern.

01:01:25.758 --> 01:01:26.898
<v SPEAKER_2>It has the look.

01:01:26.898 --> 01:01:27.558
<v SPEAKER_2>It has the feel.

01:01:29.318 --> 01:01:33.318
<v SPEAKER_2>But it just doesn't have that, you know.

01:01:33.318 --> 01:01:34.578
<v SPEAKER_2>And is it pessimistic?

01:01:34.578 --> 01:01:35.078
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:01:35.078 --> 01:01:40.818
<v SPEAKER_2>No, well, actually, the heroine, the milquetoast, wins out in the end.

01:01:40.818 --> 01:01:41.678
<v SPEAKER_2>Right?

01:01:41.678 --> 01:01:42.958
<v SPEAKER_2>She...

01:01:42.958 --> 01:01:44.278
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, I...

01:01:44.278 --> 01:01:45.118
<v SPEAKER_3>no, I...

01:01:45.118 --> 01:01:46.598
<v SPEAKER_2>She definitely wins out at the end.

01:01:46.898 --> 01:01:48.498
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, yeah, but I don't...

01:01:48.498 --> 01:01:50.458
<v SPEAKER_3>She is not the protagonist of this film.

01:01:50.458 --> 01:01:54.338
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, she is the protagonist, but she's not the most interesting character.

01:01:54.338 --> 01:01:55.358
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, you know, so...

01:01:55.678 --> 01:01:57.238
<v SPEAKER_3>I disagree that she's the protagonist.

01:01:57.578 --> 01:01:59.018
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, who's the antagonist?

01:02:00.298 --> 01:02:01.578
<v SPEAKER_3>JJ.

01:02:01.578 --> 01:02:03.798
<v SPEAKER_2>Who's the protagonist?

01:02:03.798 --> 01:02:04.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Sidney.

01:02:04.238 --> 01:02:06.338
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, okay.

01:02:06.338 --> 01:02:09.338
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, I thought the structure of this was...

01:02:09.338 --> 01:02:10.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Excuse me.

01:02:10.458 --> 01:02:13.558
<v SPEAKER_2>Wait.

01:02:13.558 --> 01:02:15.938
<v SPEAKER_2>God damn it.

01:02:15.938 --> 01:02:18.078
<v SPEAKER_2>My throat got dry there.

01:02:18.078 --> 01:02:19.038
<v SPEAKER_3>You're dead, son.

01:02:19.038 --> 01:02:21.858
<v SPEAKER_3>Get yourself buried.

01:02:22.978 --> 01:02:24.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Sorry, that was mean.

01:02:24.518 --> 01:02:26.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.

01:02:26.458 --> 01:02:27.858
<v SPEAKER_2>What was I saying?

01:02:29.178 --> 01:02:31.698
<v SPEAKER_3>You're saying that this is not a film noir.

01:02:31.698 --> 01:02:33.298
<v SPEAKER_2>There's two antagonists.

01:02:33.298 --> 01:02:38.278
<v SPEAKER_2>See, I think the symbiotic relationship between the two, there's two antagonists.

01:02:38.278 --> 01:02:40.178
<v SPEAKER_2>How can you call Sidney a protagonist?

01:02:40.178 --> 01:02:41.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Just because we follow him around?

01:02:41.838 --> 01:02:44.298
<v SPEAKER_2>If that's the definition, yes.

01:02:44.298 --> 01:02:45.858
<v SPEAKER_3>No, he's the main character.

01:02:45.858 --> 01:02:47.218
<v SPEAKER_3>He's the protagonist.

01:02:47.418 --> 01:02:47.538
<v SPEAKER_3>JJ.

01:02:47.538 --> 01:02:49.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Hunsecker is the antagonist.

01:02:49.178 --> 01:03:03.518
<v SPEAKER_3>And of course, in a film, in a drama, there can be multiple sub-protagonists, sub-antagonists, which we label such sub-pros, sub-antis.

01:03:03.518 --> 01:03:05.258
<v SPEAKER_2>Sub-A's, sub-B's.

01:03:05.258 --> 01:03:07.338
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

01:03:07.338 --> 01:03:12.878
<v SPEAKER_3>So, FT, let me, I don't want to come off as condescending or high-handed.

01:03:13.198 --> 01:03:13.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Or high-handed.

01:03:13.838 --> 01:03:14.878
<v SPEAKER_2>Wait, is that a quote?

01:03:15.198 --> 01:03:17.598
<v SPEAKER_2>So, no.

01:03:17.818 --> 01:03:18.258
<v SPEAKER_3>That's me.

01:03:18.278 --> 01:03:19.998
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.

01:03:19.998 --> 01:03:22.138
<v SPEAKER_2>I should just get a whistle for your stuff.

01:03:22.138 --> 01:03:23.538
<v SPEAKER_2>So, I go.

01:03:23.538 --> 01:03:27.698
<v SPEAKER_3>No, that's just me being my natural, nice self.

01:03:28.118 --> 01:03:33.338
<v SPEAKER_3>What I want to say, FT, is I used to feel the way you felt.

01:03:33.338 --> 01:03:36.918
<v SPEAKER_3>That I used to feel that this was not a Film Noir.

01:03:36.918 --> 01:03:40.158
<v SPEAKER_3>And I kept hearing over the years, it's a Film Noir, it's a Film Noir.

01:03:40.158 --> 01:03:42.778
<v SPEAKER_3>I kept saying, stop it, stop it, it's not a Film Noir.

01:03:43.218 --> 01:03:46.238
<v SPEAKER_3>I would wake up in nightmares and cold sweats.

01:03:46.238 --> 01:03:48.178
<v SPEAKER_3>It's not a Film Noir, it's not a Film Noir.

01:03:48.178 --> 01:03:49.118
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, on the walls.

01:03:49.118 --> 01:03:49.878
<v SPEAKER_2>Stop it, stop it.

01:03:49.878 --> 01:03:59.918
<v SPEAKER_3>And a couple of things made me realize, and it's probably, there's definitely, it's not what you think of as a classic definition.

01:04:00.318 --> 01:04:00.978
<v SPEAKER_3>Of Film Noir.

01:04:01.198 --> 01:04:06.078
<v SPEAKER_3>But two things that made me feel it's a Film Noir.

01:04:06.118 --> 01:04:15.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Exhibit A is Eddie Muller, the Dean of Film Noir, came out and talked about it being a Film Noir.

01:04:15.458 --> 01:04:24.938
<v SPEAKER_3>And I hope if Annemarie's not already overburdened, we can play a clip of Eddie Muller when he introduced the film on TCM, on Noir Alley.

01:04:24.938 --> 01:04:26.898
<v SPEAKER_2>I have no idea who that is.

01:04:26.938 --> 01:04:28.918
<v SPEAKER_2>TCM being what, the Turner Movie Channel?

01:04:28.918 --> 01:04:30.958
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, sorry.

01:04:30.958 --> 01:04:32.958
<v SPEAKER_3>TCM, Turner Classic Movies.

01:04:32.958 --> 01:04:40.138
<v SPEAKER_3>Eddie Muller always ran the Noir City Festival, and now they give him a show on TCM called Noir Alley.

01:04:40.138 --> 01:04:42.678
<v SPEAKER_3>And he doesn't introduce...

01:04:42.678 --> 01:04:43.878
<v SPEAKER_3>What's so funny?

01:04:43.878 --> 01:04:46.738
<v SPEAKER_2>The next one will be the Noir sidewalk.

01:04:46.738 --> 01:04:48.138
<v SPEAKER_3>He'll end up in the Noir gutter.

01:04:48.238 --> 01:04:49.738
<v SPEAKER_3>Ooh, good one.

01:04:49.738 --> 01:04:52.318
<v SPEAKER_6>Some may doubt its credibility as noir.

01:04:52.318 --> 01:04:57.738
<v SPEAKER_6>There's no murders, no femme fatale, no blatant or punishable crimes.

01:04:57.738 --> 01:05:09.898
<v SPEAKER_6>But if you're hip to a noir ethos, a bleak and jaundiced view of the world, and the cruel nature of the people who inhabit it, Sweet Smell of Success is as noir as it gets.

01:05:09.898 --> 01:05:11.118
<v SPEAKER_3>But the other thing was some...

01:05:11.438 --> 01:05:14.658
<v SPEAKER_3>The other reason that made me realize it was a noir...

01:05:14.658 --> 01:05:18.578
<v SPEAKER_3>Obviously, the cinematography is very noir.

01:05:18.658 --> 01:05:20.898
<v SPEAKER_3>For sure, for sure.

01:05:21.618 --> 01:05:22.898
<v SPEAKER_3>The whole aspect...

01:05:22.958 --> 01:05:32.518
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm searching for words here, but the demeanor of the nastiness, the unlikable characters, even though they're not gun-toting, they're so...

01:05:32.518 --> 01:05:38.098
<v SPEAKER_3>All the characters are so dark and malevolent that it's very noir.

01:05:38.098 --> 01:05:54.558
<v SPEAKER_3>But what also I consider was something that David Corbett, the crime writer, once said to me, which was, in a film noir, we meet the protagonist at the lowest point in their lives and then watch them go downhill from there.

01:05:54.558 --> 01:05:57.418
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay, so that happens.

01:05:57.418 --> 01:05:59.338
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, and I definitely feel with...

01:05:59.338 --> 01:06:08.958
<v SPEAKER_3>You know, we meet Sidney at the low point in his career and clearly he ends up much worse off at the end of the film, at the feet and hands of...

01:06:09.438 --> 01:06:12.078
<v SPEAKER_2>You know what I think about this whole thing?

01:06:12.078 --> 01:06:20.678
<v SPEAKER_2>Why it's not a film noir, and I would say it's film noir-ish, because of lighting and is because of the language and the story.

01:06:20.678 --> 01:06:21.478
<v SPEAKER_2>It's too...

01:06:21.478 --> 01:06:23.718
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, I'm going to say something crazier now, right?

01:06:23.718 --> 01:06:27.278
<v SPEAKER_2>It's too good in a way.

01:06:27.278 --> 01:06:33.158
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, too much film noir is just bad formula.

01:06:33.158 --> 01:06:40.578
<v SPEAKER_2>You know, and I'm not talking about Double Indemnity, some of the great ones, you know, that, you know, you can name, I can Touch of Evil, you know, which is that film noir?

01:06:40.578 --> 01:06:41.078
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

01:06:41.078 --> 01:06:41.798
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I guess.

01:06:42.318 --> 01:06:45.038
<v SPEAKER_3>I would say Touch of Evil is is noir.

01:06:45.038 --> 01:06:46.118
<v SPEAKER_2>But you know what I'm saying?

01:06:46.578 --> 01:06:50.178
<v SPEAKER_2>It's in a class of its own, you know, and it doesn't have the gun totem.

01:06:50.178 --> 01:06:51.738
<v SPEAKER_2>There's no guns.

01:06:51.738 --> 01:06:52.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

01:06:52.098 --> 01:06:52.418
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

01:06:52.578 --> 01:06:54.558
<v SPEAKER_3>It's a noir without guns.

01:06:54.558 --> 01:07:04.458
<v SPEAKER_3>But allow, I would like to actually claim it to, I would actually then claim it building on what you're saying, FT., so hopefully you'll agree with me, because I'm going with the way you're going.

01:07:04.458 --> 01:07:11.138
<v SPEAKER_3>I'd like to put it into its own category that we developed here at They Shoot Films.

01:07:11.138 --> 01:07:14.038
<v SPEAKER_2>Don't ask me to name what the category is.

01:07:14.038 --> 01:07:18.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, no, we came up with it on our discussion of The Naked Kiss.

01:07:18.438 --> 01:07:19.038
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, wait.

01:07:19.158 --> 01:07:23.978
<v SPEAKER_2>A noir drama, a mellow noir.

01:07:23.978 --> 01:07:24.858
<v SPEAKER_3>Melanoir.

01:07:24.858 --> 01:07:25.518
<v SPEAKER_2>Ding!

01:07:28.298 --> 01:07:30.778
<v SPEAKER_3>So I really feel like this is another melanoir.

01:07:30.778 --> 01:07:33.498
<v SPEAKER_3>It's just like Naked Kisses.

01:07:33.498 --> 01:07:33.858
<v SPEAKER_2>Good one.

01:07:33.918 --> 01:07:38.598
<v SPEAKER_3>You know, it has the hallmark, a lot of the touchstones of noir, but it's not Gun Totem.

01:07:38.598 --> 01:07:39.558
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

01:07:39.558 --> 01:07:41.298
<v SPEAKER_2>I like the way you said Totem.

01:07:43.998 --> 01:07:45.778
<v SPEAKER_2>Are we doing the western next?

01:07:45.778 --> 01:07:47.078
<v SPEAKER_3>Gun Totem.

01:07:47.078 --> 01:07:55.538
<v SPEAKER_3>Rutan Totem, Gun Totem Adventure, starring Burt Lancaster as the famous Wyatt Earp, Tony Curtis as riverboat gambler Ben Matthews.

01:07:59.078 --> 01:08:01.278
<v SPEAKER_3>Sydney Falco was played by Tony Curtis.

01:08:02.418 --> 01:08:07.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Your thoughts, but why don't we start with a trivia question, FT, because it's been a while since you've taken a trivia question.

01:08:07.998 --> 01:08:09.858
<v SPEAKER_2>I've never trivia.

01:08:09.858 --> 01:08:10.678
<v SPEAKER_2>What do you call it?

01:08:10.678 --> 01:08:12.338
<v SPEAKER_2>Withdrawal.

01:08:12.338 --> 01:08:13.698
<v SPEAKER_3>Trivia, right.

01:08:16.058 --> 01:08:17.858
<v SPEAKER_3>Question FT, trivia question.

01:08:17.858 --> 01:08:20.058
<v SPEAKER_3>What was Tony Curtis's real name?

01:08:20.058 --> 01:08:21.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, I knew this.

01:08:21.738 --> 01:08:24.898
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, Tony Curtis, Kurtinsky.

01:08:24.958 --> 01:08:26.638
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I don't know.

01:08:26.638 --> 01:08:27.238
<v SPEAKER_2>Anthony.

01:08:27.238 --> 01:08:27.578
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

01:08:27.578 --> 01:08:29.238
<v SPEAKER_5>What?

01:08:29.238 --> 01:08:37.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Bernie, Bernard Schwartz, or as Al Pacino would say, in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Bernie Schwarz.

01:08:37.098 --> 01:08:38.078
<v SPEAKER_2>Was it really?

01:08:38.078 --> 01:08:39.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Bernard Schwartz.

01:08:39.838 --> 01:08:39.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

01:08:39.998 --> 01:08:40.778
<v SPEAKER_2>How about that?

01:08:40.778 --> 01:08:42.038
<v SPEAKER_3>Bernard Schwartz, yeah.

01:08:42.038 --> 01:08:43.758
<v SPEAKER_2>Why did he change it?

01:08:45.598 --> 01:08:48.958
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, and as I said, he came up the hard way.

01:08:48.958 --> 01:08:55.698
<v SPEAKER_3>I forget, I don't have the details now, but if anyone is interested, he had a Dickensian upbringing.

01:08:55.698 --> 01:08:58.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Interestingly enough, he, why are you laughing at that?

01:08:58.238 --> 01:08:59.758
<v SPEAKER_3>It was a literary reference.

01:08:59.758 --> 01:09:02.878
<v SPEAKER_2>You snuck in Dickensian again.

01:09:02.878 --> 01:09:04.378
<v SPEAKER_2>So it's a big Dickens night.

01:09:04.378 --> 01:09:08.978
<v SPEAKER_2>How about a Zolalian upbringing, yes.

01:09:08.978 --> 01:09:11.278
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm being a show off now, I'm sorry, I apologize.

01:09:12.938 --> 01:09:17.818
<v SPEAKER_3>Interestingly, he did not learn to speak English till I think he was six years old.

01:09:17.818 --> 01:09:19.318
<v SPEAKER_2>Like my dad, actually.

01:09:20.058 --> 01:09:20.798
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, really?

01:09:20.798 --> 01:09:21.378
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:09:21.798 --> 01:09:22.778
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:09:22.998 --> 01:09:25.898
<v SPEAKER_2>My father was sent to first grade to not speak English.

01:09:25.898 --> 01:09:26.978
<v SPEAKER_3>Interesting.

01:09:26.978 --> 01:09:27.518
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:09:27.898 --> 01:09:44.078
<v SPEAKER_3>So Tony Curtis, sorry, it's Tony Curtis aka Bernard Schwartz, he goes, he enlists in World War II, he comes home and on the GI Bill, he does enroll in acting classes at the New School.

01:09:44.078 --> 01:09:50.058
<v SPEAKER_3>But I don't think ever, it's very, I was trying to find out how long he went for.

01:09:50.198 --> 01:09:53.918
<v SPEAKER_3>And I don't think it was very long and he was very outspoken.

01:09:53.918 --> 01:09:57.938
<v SPEAKER_3>It's well documented that he just wanted to be a movie star.

01:09:57.938 --> 01:10:03.878
<v SPEAKER_3>Because I don't see him, I don't really see a lot of great training in his work.

01:10:03.878 --> 01:10:08.438
<v SPEAKER_3>Not that an actor really needs to be trained if they're natural, but it's interesting too.

01:10:08.438 --> 01:10:11.778
<v SPEAKER_3>So I was really trying to see how long did he go for.

01:10:11.778 --> 01:10:17.018
<v SPEAKER_3>It's interesting at the New School, he studied with Erwin Piscator.

01:10:17.018 --> 01:10:18.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Are you familiar with Erwin Piscator?

01:10:18.838 --> 01:10:20.038
<v SPEAKER_2>I am not.

01:10:20.038 --> 01:10:22.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, he had his own...

01:10:22.898 --> 01:10:24.878
<v SPEAKER_3>So he was contemporary.

01:10:24.878 --> 01:10:34.658
<v SPEAKER_3>And actually, when the actor studio broke up, I think Strasburg went to also teach at the New School with Piscator.

01:10:34.658 --> 01:10:37.178
<v SPEAKER_3>But Piscator had a competing school of acting.

01:10:37.178 --> 01:10:38.338
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm not making this up.

01:10:38.338 --> 01:10:39.098
<v SPEAKER_3>You're going to laugh at me.

01:10:40.278 --> 01:10:43.138
<v SPEAKER_3>And he had something that was called...

01:10:43.218 --> 01:10:44.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Let me see if I can...

01:10:44.458 --> 01:10:47.258
<v SPEAKER_3>Something that he called objective acting, FT.

01:10:47.258 --> 01:10:48.618
<v SPEAKER_2>I heard of this.

01:10:48.618 --> 01:10:49.318
<v SPEAKER_3>OK, tell us.

01:10:49.318 --> 01:10:49.838
<v SPEAKER_2>I don't know.

01:10:49.998 --> 01:10:51.498
<v SPEAKER_2>I just said I heard of it.

01:10:51.498 --> 01:10:52.098
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

01:10:52.098 --> 01:10:53.498
<v SPEAKER_3>So it's called objective acting.

01:10:53.498 --> 01:10:54.918
<v SPEAKER_3>And I'm not making this up.

01:10:54.918 --> 01:10:55.598
<v SPEAKER_3>Don't laugh at me.

01:10:55.598 --> 01:11:03.458
<v SPEAKER_3>His whole thing was the actor really needs to be thinking about the audience while they're performing.

01:11:03.458 --> 01:11:09.338
<v SPEAKER_3>And thinking about how to interact with the audience, which to me is like the worst acting.

01:11:09.338 --> 01:11:12.318
<v SPEAKER_3>It just seems like the worst acting advice anybody could have.

01:11:12.318 --> 01:11:16.518
<v SPEAKER_3>But again, I feel that with Tony Curtis and his work.

01:11:16.518 --> 01:11:28.178
<v SPEAKER_3>So anyway, Curtis threw whatever his work with Erwin Piscator, and I don't think he really studied there for that long, just said he wanted to be a movie star, or heads for Hollywood.

01:11:28.178 --> 01:11:35.718
<v SPEAKER_3>And because of his looks and some lucky breaks, becomes kind of an instant star.

01:11:35.718 --> 01:11:46.398
<v SPEAKER_3>He started out, did a lot of epics that were set in the Middle East that at that time people used to call tits and sand pictures.

01:11:47.358 --> 01:11:56.998
<v SPEAKER_3>And he became, in 57, the year this film came out, he was the Golden Globe winner for the most popular male actor.

01:11:56.998 --> 01:11:58.038
<v SPEAKER_2>No, I'm kidding.

01:11:58.038 --> 01:12:06.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, so, and that was kind of the death knell for Sweet Smell of Success.

01:12:06.458 --> 01:12:09.158
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't know if you know this, Sweet Smell of Success was a huge flop.

01:12:09.158 --> 01:12:09.938
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, total bomb.

01:12:09.938 --> 01:12:10.798
<v SPEAKER_2>I knew that.

01:12:10.818 --> 01:12:29.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Commercial failure, critics hated it, and a big reason for the failure is Tony Curtis had all these female fans, you know, he was a heartthrob, and these female fans came out and saw Tony Curtis as Despicable.

01:12:30.358 --> 01:12:33.338
<v SPEAKER_3>Sydney Falco, and they did not like it.

01:12:33.338 --> 01:12:37.578
<v SPEAKER_3>So hats off for Tony Curtis for doing that.

01:12:37.578 --> 01:12:41.958
<v SPEAKER_3>I kind of wish, and again, this is going to be blasphemy.

01:12:41.958 --> 01:12:46.138
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm not in love with Tony Curtis' performance in this film.

01:12:48.118 --> 01:12:51.798
<v SPEAKER_2>As the Catholic girls used to go when I said something, oh, really?

01:12:51.798 --> 01:12:53.458
<v SPEAKER_2>I think it's great.

01:12:53.458 --> 01:12:54.858
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, you know, what do you want?

01:12:55.078 --> 01:12:56.378
<v SPEAKER_2>Monty Cliff?

01:12:57.438 --> 01:12:58.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Ben Guzzara?

01:12:58.838 --> 01:12:59.938
<v SPEAKER_2>That would have been good.

01:12:59.938 --> 01:13:00.858
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, yeah.

01:13:00.858 --> 01:13:02.358
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, yes, I'll take that.

01:13:02.358 --> 01:13:02.978
<v SPEAKER_2>That's a good one.

01:13:02.978 --> 01:13:04.018
<v SPEAKER_2>Ben would have been great in that.

01:13:04.358 --> 01:13:05.178
<v SPEAKER_2>It would have been just as...

01:13:05.178 --> 01:13:06.218
<v SPEAKER_2>But you know what?

01:13:06.218 --> 01:13:07.438
<v SPEAKER_2>Where was he bad?

01:13:08.358 --> 01:13:09.998
<v SPEAKER_2>I think the ending was troubled.

01:13:09.998 --> 01:13:15.658
<v SPEAKER_2>And I think the ending was troubled in the script, and I think the ending was troubled in Tony Curtis' performance.

01:13:15.658 --> 01:13:18.658
<v SPEAKER_2>But otherwise, I thought he did the job.

01:13:18.658 --> 01:13:19.278
<v SPEAKER_2>He did the job.

01:13:19.378 --> 01:13:22.238
<v SPEAKER_3>He dud the job.

01:13:22.238 --> 01:13:24.018
<v SPEAKER_3>It's funny now.

01:13:24.018 --> 01:13:31.078
<v SPEAKER_3>Now that I'm talking this out with you, I think, and I hadn't put it together before, I hadn't had this planned, I think this...

01:13:31.158 --> 01:13:33.058
<v SPEAKER_3>I feel like he's playing to the audience.

01:13:33.258 --> 01:13:43.418
<v SPEAKER_3>He's not, you know, a lot of this stuff is not really internal, but you know, playing for the audience about what he's trying to...

01:13:43.538 --> 01:13:46.758
<v SPEAKER_3>you know, he's projecting, indicating, I think.

01:13:46.758 --> 01:13:47.938
<v SPEAKER_2>Maybe, yeah.

01:13:47.938 --> 01:13:51.478
<v SPEAKER_2>But Jack Lemmon would do a similar thing, in my opinion.

01:13:51.478 --> 01:13:52.598
<v SPEAKER_3>The Jack Lemmon defense.

01:13:52.598 --> 01:13:57.218
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, you know, they were in a movie, was that before this or after this?

01:13:57.218 --> 01:13:59.538
<v SPEAKER_3>Something like that, huh?

01:13:59.578 --> 01:13:59.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:14:00.538 --> 01:14:06.438
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, it's not the defense, but it's like the non-Method guys, you know, representative acting and, you know.

01:14:06.438 --> 01:14:07.038
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

01:14:07.038 --> 01:14:07.358
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

01:14:07.358 --> 01:14:11.518
<v SPEAKER_3>And I guess, I don't know, I guess that was...

01:14:11.518 --> 01:14:16.878
<v SPEAKER_3>I don't know, it's weird, FT., I guess Bezo Dets came out of that acting school, and the script is met.

01:14:17.638 --> 01:14:20.698
<v SPEAKER_3>I want Monty Clef, I want Ben Guzzara.

01:14:22.958 --> 01:14:29.778
<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, it's strange, it's weird to say it, but I would have loved Brando in this part.

01:14:29.778 --> 01:14:30.278
<v SPEAKER_2>Sure.

01:14:30.278 --> 01:14:31.438
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:31.438 --> 01:14:33.778
<v SPEAKER_2>James Dean wasn't even, you know, whatever.

01:14:33.778 --> 01:14:35.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, yeah, James Dean.

01:14:35.238 --> 01:14:42.318
<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, think about, it sounded weird when I brought up Brando, but think about Brando in the car at the end of Waterfront.

01:14:42.998 --> 01:14:50.198
<v SPEAKER_3>You know, that that vulnerability, you know, that's almost in some ways, that's the a lot of the same character notes.

01:14:50.198 --> 01:14:50.998
<v SPEAKER_2>So interesting.

01:14:50.998 --> 01:14:52.338
<v SPEAKER_2>But I don't mean to doubt.

01:14:52.338 --> 01:15:03.638
<v SPEAKER_2>But could he have been, you know, I think of the line in what's the Audrey Hepburn movie, The Capote Story, Blake Edwards directed.

01:15:03.638 --> 01:15:04.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

01:15:04.678 --> 01:15:05.638
<v SPEAKER_2>Breakfast at Tiffany's.

01:15:05.678 --> 01:15:09.798
<v SPEAKER_2>The line is like, you know, the problem with him is no, he's not a phony.

01:15:09.798 --> 01:15:10.778
<v SPEAKER_2>He's a real phony.

01:15:13.718 --> 01:15:19.018
<v SPEAKER_2>I think what Tony Curtis as Sidney could pull off was that here is a real phony.

01:15:19.018 --> 01:15:22.718
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, that's the take I took, you know, all along, you know.

01:15:22.718 --> 01:15:26.498
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, I can see Cassavetes playing this too, as the young Cassavetes, you know.

01:15:26.498 --> 01:15:27.258
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

01:15:27.258 --> 01:15:34.358
<v SPEAKER_3>And so, but that's what's interesting, and we should move on, that we're sitting here, and I think that's at the heart.

01:15:34.358 --> 01:15:43.698
<v SPEAKER_3>This movie, 1956, you know, it's at a weird time in acting where, you know, Method Acting, the Actors Studio is...

01:15:43.698 --> 01:15:44.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, let me put it this way.

01:15:44.898 --> 01:15:49.938
<v SPEAKER_3>What's strange is when you look at Tony Curtis' performance in there, this...

01:15:49.938 --> 01:15:51.298
<v SPEAKER_3>You have to understand, Brand...

01:15:51.298 --> 01:15:58.698
<v SPEAKER_3>He was a contemporary of Marlon Brando's, and again, the approach to acting could not be more different.

01:15:58.698 --> 01:16:06.998
<v SPEAKER_3>And again, I think my feeling is, it's this Clifford Odets script that I think called for somebody who came out of...

01:16:06.998 --> 01:16:07.528
<v SPEAKER_2>I agree...

01:16:07.528 --> 01:16:07.528
<v SPEAKER_3>.

01:16:07.528 --> 01:16:12.658
<v SPEAKER_3>out of the actor's studio, not somebody who came out of Tits and Sand, as they used to say.

01:16:12.658 --> 01:16:15.338
<v SPEAKER_2>But was Burt out of actor's studio?

01:16:15.338 --> 01:16:16.358
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

01:16:16.358 --> 01:16:19.898
<v SPEAKER_3>No, but whatever he did was fantastic.

01:16:19.898 --> 01:16:20.158
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

01:16:20.158 --> 01:16:21.358
<v SPEAKER_3>However he got there.

01:16:21.458 --> 01:16:26.958
<v SPEAKER_3>And I'm not one to say that somebody has to be trained in the method to be successful.

01:16:26.958 --> 01:16:31.218
<v SPEAKER_3>You can get there and you can take many paths to getting there.

01:16:31.218 --> 01:16:39.538
<v SPEAKER_3>You know, it's funny, when I was studying acting, I was studying with this woman named Jean Shelton, who was in the Actors Studio back in the day.

01:16:39.538 --> 01:16:42.578
<v SPEAKER_3>She was a much older woman when I knew her.

01:16:42.578 --> 01:16:48.418
<v SPEAKER_3>And you know, I started at her, it was called the Jean Shelton Actors Studio.

01:16:48.418 --> 01:16:53.598
<v SPEAKER_3>And I had to start, you know, with other teachers hoping to get into Jean's class.

01:16:53.598 --> 01:16:58.758
<v SPEAKER_3>And then I finally got into Jean's class, you know, getting it from the source.

01:16:58.758 --> 01:17:04.798
<v SPEAKER_3>And then I was just, man, if I could somehow graduate to her master class, I would know all the secrets.

01:17:06.318 --> 01:17:08.558
<v SPEAKER_3>And I finally made it into her master class.

01:17:08.558 --> 01:17:17.558
<v SPEAKER_3>And after however many, you know, much time in the master class, she finally revealed the secret to acting from her point of view.

01:17:17.558 --> 01:17:19.058
<v SPEAKER_2>Acting is casting?

01:17:20.578 --> 01:17:22.418
<v SPEAKER_3>No, I was not that.

01:17:22.418 --> 01:17:23.598
<v SPEAKER_3>It was not that.

01:17:23.598 --> 01:17:25.238
<v SPEAKER_2>What is it, Ken?

01:17:25.238 --> 01:17:26.338
<v SPEAKER_2>I can't tell you, it's a secret.

01:17:26.518 --> 01:17:28.678
<v SPEAKER_3>I was, yeah, I was sworn, no.

01:17:29.598 --> 01:17:32.218
<v SPEAKER_3>Her secret, and it was so helpful to me.

01:17:32.278 --> 01:17:32.718
<v SPEAKER_2>How was it?

01:17:33.738 --> 01:17:38.558
<v SPEAKER_3>Her script analysis, you have to under, it's all in the script.

01:17:38.958 --> 01:17:41.618
<v SPEAKER_3>And I really feel like that's what Burt did.

01:17:41.618 --> 01:17:50.118
<v SPEAKER_3>I felt like he, and it might have been Mackendrick helping, which I, he really, he really understood the character in the script and the lines.

01:17:50.118 --> 01:17:51.098
<v SPEAKER_2>Absolutely.

01:17:51.098 --> 01:17:56.018
<v SPEAKER_2>And was able to tap that emotional position also, right?

01:17:56.018 --> 01:17:57.338
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

01:17:57.338 --> 01:17:58.098
<v SPEAKER_3>I hear you.

01:17:58.238 --> 01:18:24.118
<v SPEAKER_3>And actually, and now that we're saying it, and this is helpful for me to work through my own, my own issues that I didn't really understand, think about it if, if Tony Curtis, who I don't take as a literary sort, and again, couldn't even speak English till you were six, if he had taken that approach and just kind of done the lines rather than putting so much tops, you know, I feel like he was always adding acting to the lines.

01:18:24.118 --> 01:18:30.398
<v SPEAKER_3>And I think these lines can kind of work without so much salt and pepper on them.

01:18:32.698 --> 01:18:34.638
<v SPEAKER_3>Why are you laughing?

01:18:34.638 --> 01:18:37.698
<v SPEAKER_2>I was envisioning ketchup.

01:18:37.698 --> 01:18:39.218
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay, whatever your condiment is.

01:18:39.218 --> 01:18:43.438
<v SPEAKER_2>No, actually for his case it would be, what is that, schmaltz, you know.

01:18:43.438 --> 01:18:48.118
<v SPEAKER_3>But no, I mean, yeah, so this is helpful, because I think when you said, well, what about Burt?

01:18:48.118 --> 01:18:54.838
<v SPEAKER_3>I think Burt was pretty much delivering the excellent lines without having to add too much to them.

01:18:54.958 --> 01:19:12.938
<v SPEAKER_3>And it really, again, not to undermine what he did, because he was doing so much great stuff, great physically, the way he said the lines, his timing, A+, and I guess it's funny when, you know, we talked about David Mamet before, if you've read any of his books in acting, that's what he insists on, just fucking say the lines.

01:19:12.938 --> 01:19:16.118
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, I know, but that's all another, you know, my issue with that.

01:19:16.118 --> 01:19:17.438
<v SPEAKER_2>Here's the thing, all right?

01:19:17.438 --> 01:19:19.658
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, yes, yes, and yes, yes.

01:19:19.658 --> 01:19:23.158
<v SPEAKER_2>Did, was Tony Curtis believable?

01:19:23.438 --> 01:19:30.198
<v SPEAKER_2>And my answer to that was 98, 90% of the time until that last scene where he didn't know what to do with himself.

01:19:30.198 --> 01:19:39.978
<v SPEAKER_2>And the scene with Susie at the end, you know, and the blocking there, I mean, that was kind of a disaster scene for me, which really hurt the film, you know?

01:19:39.978 --> 01:19:46.918
<v SPEAKER_2>The blocking's off, the script is nasty, you think with your hips and all that shit, and he couldn't pull it off for me.

01:19:46.918 --> 01:19:50.498
<v SPEAKER_2>That's the where he popped out, where he wasn't believable, you know?

01:19:50.498 --> 01:19:51.658
<v SPEAKER_2>The rest of it, he's believable.

01:19:51.658 --> 01:19:52.498
<v SPEAKER_2>He's just moving around.

01:19:52.558 --> 01:19:55.018
<v SPEAKER_2>He's one of those action kind of oriented guys.

01:19:55.018 --> 01:19:57.638
<v SPEAKER_2>So maybe we can move on, right?

01:19:57.638 --> 01:19:58.978
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, we need to move on.

01:19:58.978 --> 01:20:03.498
<v SPEAKER_3>So thank you for that small bit of grace there, FT.

01:20:03.498 --> 01:20:04.398
<v SPEAKER_2>You're welcome.

01:20:04.398 --> 01:20:10.158
<v SPEAKER_3>Why don't we just talk about some of the supporting actors real quick, if we could, FT., Marty Milner, your thoughts.

01:20:10.158 --> 01:20:11.998
<v SPEAKER_2>Who was Marty Milner?

01:20:11.998 --> 01:20:14.558
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, I'm sorry.

01:20:14.558 --> 01:20:19.778
<v SPEAKER_3>No, it's good because it's becoming our trademark whenever we get to supporting actors, and I say, what about this?

01:20:19.778 --> 01:20:20.478
<v SPEAKER_3>And you're like, who is that?

01:20:21.318 --> 01:20:23.738
<v SPEAKER_3>Marty Milner played Steve Dallas.

01:20:23.738 --> 01:20:25.038
<v SPEAKER_2>Terrible.

01:20:25.038 --> 01:20:29.018
<v SPEAKER_2>He looks like he should be in a chewing gum commercial, and that's it.

01:20:29.018 --> 01:20:30.138
<v SPEAKER_2>He was terrible.

01:20:30.138 --> 01:20:32.038
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, you know his claim to fame, right?

01:20:32.038 --> 01:20:33.678
<v SPEAKER_2>Wasn't he on a TV series?

01:20:33.678 --> 01:20:35.898
<v SPEAKER_3>No, he was in a, he was the Wrigley's gum.

01:20:35.898 --> 01:20:37.318
<v SPEAKER_2>No, he wasn't, was he?

01:20:37.318 --> 01:20:39.578
<v SPEAKER_3>No, no, he was in Adam 12.

01:20:39.578 --> 01:20:40.018
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:20:40.018 --> 01:20:40.318
<v SPEAKER_2>All right.

01:20:40.318 --> 01:20:43.238
<v SPEAKER_2>That was probably on ABC, which I didn't get as a kid.

01:20:45.018 --> 01:20:53.458
<v SPEAKER_3>Sorry, I should point out to the viewers that FT had a Dickensian childhood without ABC.

01:20:53.458 --> 01:21:01.198
<v SPEAKER_2>Remember, I did get cable TV when nobody else had cable TV from New York and Pittsburgh, my friend in the 60s.

01:21:01.198 --> 01:21:02.318
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

01:21:02.318 --> 01:21:05.498
<v SPEAKER_3>So, Marty Milner lives in Adam 12.

01:21:05.498 --> 01:21:07.538
<v SPEAKER_2>He's terrible.

01:21:07.538 --> 01:21:08.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.

01:21:09.918 --> 01:21:12.258
<v SPEAKER_3>I think that's cruel and unusual.

01:21:13.158 --> 01:21:14.378
<v SPEAKER_3>I think he's not good.

01:21:14.918 --> 01:21:15.858
<v SPEAKER_3>Let's leave it at that.

01:21:16.578 --> 01:21:18.418
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, I'm sorry.

01:21:18.418 --> 01:21:18.918
<v SPEAKER_3>Okay.

01:21:19.158 --> 01:21:20.618
<v SPEAKER_3>Let's move on to Susan Harrison.

01:21:20.758 --> 01:21:23.438
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, just take that picture and slap it.

01:21:23.438 --> 01:21:25.578
<v SPEAKER_3>So, how come you didn't say who's Susan Harrison?

01:21:25.578 --> 01:21:27.378
<v SPEAKER_2>I knew who that was because-

01:21:27.378 --> 01:21:27.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Who is it?

01:21:27.838 --> 01:21:29.838
<v SPEAKER_2>It's Suzy.

01:21:29.838 --> 01:21:30.578
<v SPEAKER_3>No, it's not.

01:21:30.578 --> 01:21:31.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Isn't it?

01:21:31.558 --> 01:21:32.658
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, it is.

01:21:33.178 --> 01:21:33.938
<v SPEAKER_3>It's Rita.

01:21:33.938 --> 01:21:35.478
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh, well, Judy Holliday.

01:21:35.478 --> 01:21:35.978
<v SPEAKER_2>There you go.

01:21:35.978 --> 01:21:36.818
<v SPEAKER_3>No, no.

01:21:37.098 --> 01:21:37.698
<v SPEAKER_3>No.

01:21:37.758 --> 01:21:41.998
<v SPEAKER_3>No, Susan Harrison played Susan Hunsecker.

01:21:41.998 --> 01:21:47.778
<v SPEAKER_2>And part of the problem there was the direction and the whole character being that ridiculous milquetoast.

01:21:47.778 --> 01:21:51.718
<v SPEAKER_2>It was, again, that almost hurt the film for me.

01:21:51.718 --> 01:21:54.958
<v SPEAKER_2>There could have been something more to her than just that.

01:21:55.898 --> 01:22:02.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Like the overt incestual shit going on there too, which we didn't talk about.

01:22:02.658 --> 01:22:09.398
<v SPEAKER_3>The Susan Harrison thing, I think, and I don't want to blame Sandy McKendrick.

01:22:09.398 --> 01:22:26.518
<v SPEAKER_3>But based on the fact that Sandy McKendrick wanted to cast Yume Cronin as JJ because he looked like Winchell, I have to think it was McKendrick's idea to, and of course he was the director, to cast Susan Harrison, who was never an actress.

01:22:26.518 --> 01:22:27.338
<v SPEAKER_3>She had never acted before.

01:22:27.338 --> 01:22:27.918
<v SPEAKER_3>Obviously.

01:22:28.818 --> 01:22:30.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Do you know what her redeeming quality is?

01:22:30.898 --> 01:22:32.698
<v SPEAKER_2>Don't say anything about swallowing.

01:22:33.778 --> 01:22:34.178
<v SPEAKER_2>I'm sorry.

01:22:34.738 --> 01:22:35.538
<v SPEAKER_2>What?

01:22:35.538 --> 01:22:39.258
<v SPEAKER_3>No, she looks exactly like Waldo.

01:22:39.258 --> 01:22:40.258
<v SPEAKER_2>Winchell's daughter, right, right, right.

01:22:40.258 --> 01:22:45.278
<v SPEAKER_3>If you look at pictures of Winchell's daughter, and you look at, she looks like her.

01:22:45.458 --> 01:22:47.218
<v SPEAKER_3>And...

01:22:47.218 --> 01:22:48.278
<v SPEAKER_2>That's so lame.

01:22:48.278 --> 01:22:51.118
<v SPEAKER_2>Oh my God, yeah, yeah.

01:22:52.558 --> 01:22:58.538
<v SPEAKER_3>Let's talk about cinematography, which is such an important part of this film.

01:22:58.538 --> 01:23:03.518
<v SPEAKER_3>The cinematographer was one James Wong Howe, or as I call him, Jimmy Howe.

01:23:05.418 --> 01:23:08.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Which by the way, FT, again, it was what people called him before you laugh.

01:23:08.678 --> 01:23:10.358
<v SPEAKER_2>People.

01:23:10.358 --> 01:23:13.278
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, nobody called him James Wong Howe.

01:23:14.858 --> 01:23:15.978
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

01:23:15.978 --> 01:23:16.738
<v SPEAKER_2>Well, nothing.

01:23:16.738 --> 01:23:17.658
<v SPEAKER_2>Go ahead.

01:23:17.658 --> 01:23:19.318
<v SPEAKER_3>Speak.

01:23:19.318 --> 01:23:21.278
<v SPEAKER_3>Why don't you take the reins here?

01:23:21.738 --> 01:23:22.978
<v SPEAKER_2>I didn't really...

01:23:22.978 --> 01:23:23.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Tell us what you know about James.

01:23:23.998 --> 01:23:24.998
<v SPEAKER_3>Nothing.

01:23:24.998 --> 01:23:29.078
<v SPEAKER_3>I mean, you were the one who had introduced me to James Wong Howe years ago.

01:23:29.098 --> 01:23:30.538
<v SPEAKER_2>Guess why?

01:23:30.538 --> 01:23:33.238
<v SPEAKER_2>Partially because of this movie, my friend.

01:23:33.238 --> 01:23:38.838
<v SPEAKER_2>That's where, you know, this is the movie that really, I mean, I do know he had a very long career.

01:23:38.838 --> 01:23:40.698
<v SPEAKER_2>Matter of fact, he went back as a kid to it.

01:23:40.698 --> 01:23:43.578
<v SPEAKER_2>He was making silent films.

01:23:43.578 --> 01:23:46.298
<v SPEAKER_2>And the fact that he's Chinese, I mean, was amazing.

01:23:46.298 --> 01:23:46.638
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah.

01:23:46.638 --> 01:23:49.918
<v SPEAKER_2>I mean, of Chinese descent, so to say, an American, you know.

01:23:49.918 --> 01:23:54.018
<v SPEAKER_3>No, no, no, he was not of Chinese descent, as you say.

01:23:54.018 --> 01:23:55.918
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes, he was born in China.

01:24:00.178 --> 01:24:05.198
<v SPEAKER_3>And he was in California at a time where, what's the word I'm looking for here?

01:24:05.198 --> 01:24:06.738
<v SPEAKER_2>It's Chinatown, Jake.

01:24:06.738 --> 01:24:07.398
<v SPEAKER_2>Right.

01:24:07.398 --> 01:24:08.298
<v SPEAKER_3>I'm sorry.

01:24:08.298 --> 01:24:13.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Racism against Asian Americans was rampant.

01:24:13.238 --> 01:24:23.258
<v SPEAKER_3>In spite of that, he managed to become, certainly at that time, one of the most successful cinematographers in America.

01:24:23.258 --> 01:24:31.618
<v SPEAKER_3>And yes, as you said, he started out his career as a clapper boy for Cecil DeMille.

01:24:31.618 --> 01:24:32.718
<v SPEAKER_2>A clapper boy.

01:24:32.718 --> 01:24:33.698
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.

01:24:33.698 --> 01:24:34.298
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

01:24:34.298 --> 01:24:35.578
<v SPEAKER_2>Okay.

01:24:35.578 --> 01:24:36.958
<v SPEAKER_2>And wait, why am I supposed to...

01:24:41.798 --> 01:24:44.738
<v SPEAKER_3>No, but please tell people what a clapper boy does.

01:24:44.738 --> 01:24:47.278
<v SPEAKER_2>Somebody holds a slate and makes a clap.

01:24:47.318 --> 01:24:49.758
<v SPEAKER_2>But in the silent days, while there's a yes...

01:24:49.758 --> 01:24:53.578
<v SPEAKER_3>No, a clapper boy, yes, was the person who slated the shots.

01:24:53.578 --> 01:24:55.638
<v SPEAKER_3>And he started out as a clapper boy.

01:24:55.638 --> 01:24:59.458
<v SPEAKER_2>What does it mean to slate a shot, Ken, for the people that don't know anything about this?

01:25:01.058 --> 01:25:03.038
<v SPEAKER_3>It means to take the...

01:25:04.198 --> 01:25:06.858
<v SPEAKER_3>And I'm sorry, so you're right.

01:25:07.098 --> 01:25:08.158
<v SPEAKER_3>He wasn't slating the shot.

01:25:08.158 --> 01:25:13.738
<v SPEAKER_3>The assistant director will say, you know, take seven, scene, blah, blah, blah.

01:25:13.738 --> 01:25:23.578
<v SPEAKER_3>And then the director says cut or action, and the clapper boy will then clap the slate together, and that will allow the editor to sync the sound.

01:25:23.578 --> 01:25:30.178
<v SPEAKER_2>When the top part of the slate comes down and meets the other one, and on the slate itself is the scene number, et cetera, et cetera, and all that.

01:25:30.178 --> 01:25:31.458
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes.

01:25:31.458 --> 01:25:33.518
<v SPEAKER_2>Some people don't know, by the way.

01:25:34.618 --> 01:25:38.238
<v SPEAKER_2>Some people don't know what a slate was, and then tail slating upside down.

01:25:38.498 --> 01:25:39.698
<v SPEAKER_5>Yeah.

01:25:41.758 --> 01:25:50.838
<v SPEAKER_3>Anywho, and James Wong Howe climbed up the ladder just based on pure talent, and the fact he was like relentless and experiment.

01:25:50.838 --> 01:25:52.678
<v SPEAKER_3>I remember the story.

01:25:53.838 --> 01:26:11.498
<v SPEAKER_3>When he was a clapper boy, he went out and bought a coffee grinder and would just spend all day turning the crank on the coffee grinder in preparation for the time that he might someday be able to operate a camera, which I remember, in those long gone days, the cameras were hand cranked.

01:26:11.498 --> 01:26:22.738
<v SPEAKER_3>So he was practicing on a coffee grinder, and he was known for being a real problem solver, in an innovator in problem solving.

01:26:22.738 --> 01:26:25.578
<v SPEAKER_3>And there's two examples that I recall.

01:26:25.578 --> 01:26:27.218
<v SPEAKER_3>You may know more, FT.

01:26:27.238 --> 01:26:35.418
<v SPEAKER_3>One was he was on set, and I don't think he was a DP then, and they had to have a talking bird, like a canary, a talking bird.

01:26:35.418 --> 01:26:36.098
<v SPEAKER_2>You mean a parrot.

01:26:39.298 --> 01:26:42.378
<v SPEAKER_2>A canary is somebody who's a rat.

01:26:43.498 --> 01:26:44.078
<v SPEAKER_2>Somebody that sings.

01:26:44.078 --> 01:26:48.358
<v SPEAKER_3>Anyway, they needed a bird to be talking, and the bird wouldn't talk.

01:26:49.438 --> 01:26:51.538
<v SPEAKER_3>You know how hard it is to work with.

01:26:51.538 --> 01:26:52.518
<v SPEAKER_3>Right.

01:26:52.658 --> 01:27:11.278
<v SPEAKER_3>And so, and sorry, this is gonna seem obvious now, but when you've heard about it, so they couldn't get the bird to act like it was talking, or to talk, and so James Wong Howe took a piece of gum out of his mouth and put it in the bird's mouth, and the bird started chewing on it.

01:27:11.338 --> 01:27:12.178
<v SPEAKER_3>Like a dub.

01:27:12.178 --> 01:27:13.258
<v SPEAKER_3>Of course.

01:27:13.258 --> 01:27:15.418
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, it looked like it was talking.

01:27:15.418 --> 01:27:19.278
<v SPEAKER_3>And again, you know, it feels not that innovative now, because again, with Mr.

01:27:19.278 --> 01:27:27.118
<v SPEAKER_3>Ed, they give him peanut butter, and you know, there's probably others, but Jimmy Wong Howe came up with that idea.

01:27:27.118 --> 01:27:30.918
<v SPEAKER_3>And then of course, in Body and Soul, the boxing movie.

01:27:30.918 --> 01:27:31.678
<v SPEAKER_2>He shot that.

01:27:31.798 --> 01:27:32.498
<v SPEAKER_3>Who directed that one?

01:27:32.498 --> 01:27:33.378
<v SPEAKER_2>Body and Soul, wasn't it?

01:27:33.378 --> 01:27:34.658
<v SPEAKER_2>Garfield, I don't know who directed it.

01:27:34.658 --> 01:27:36.438
<v SPEAKER_2>Garfield's in it, right?

01:27:36.758 --> 01:27:50.738
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, some important director, and Jimmy Wong Howe was the cinematographer, and he came up with the idea for the boxing scenes to put the camera operator on roller skates.

01:27:50.738 --> 01:27:51.238
<v SPEAKER_2>Really?

01:27:51.238 --> 01:27:51.678
<v SPEAKER_3>Yes.

01:27:51.678 --> 01:27:52.998
<v SPEAKER_2>That wasn't a chaplain idea?

01:27:52.998 --> 01:27:55.238
<v SPEAKER_3>Oh, I don't know.

01:27:55.238 --> 01:27:56.938
<v SPEAKER_2>So in other words, he stole the idea?

01:27:58.278 --> 01:27:58.758
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, I don't know.

01:27:58.758 --> 01:28:00.798
<v SPEAKER_3>It's credited to James Wong Howe.

01:28:02.058 --> 01:28:14.678
<v SPEAKER_3>One last note on James Wong Howe for Sweet Smell of Success, which was kind of interesting, and I don't know if it was Wong Howe's idea or the set decorator, but for the nightclub scenes.

01:28:15.338 --> 01:28:21.638
<v SPEAKER_3>So basically, for Sweet Smell of Success, all the nighttime exteriors were shot in New York.

01:28:23.018 --> 01:28:27.298
<v SPEAKER_3>All the interiors were shot on stages back in LA.

01:28:27.298 --> 01:28:50.598
<v SPEAKER_3>And the nightclub scenes, they built them on the MGM lot, on sound stages, and the sets were built, I think, six or 12 feet off the ground, and they put smoke pots underneath the stages to bring up smoke, and I think Wong Howe also put lights under there for some of the uplighting stuff he did.

01:28:50.698 --> 01:28:52.858
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah, clever fellow.

01:28:52.858 --> 01:29:05.598
<v SPEAKER_3>Yeah, no, and this black and white, watching this film, a lot of films I watch, and I can kind of picture them in black and white films, I can picture them in color, color films, I can picture them in black and white.

01:29:05.598 --> 01:29:09.278
<v SPEAKER_3>This film, The Sweet Smell of Success, I cannot picture in color.

01:29:09.278 --> 01:29:10.238
<v SPEAKER_2>No way, yeah.

01:29:10.438 --> 01:29:21.498
<v SPEAKER_3>And what's interesting too, and I don't know if it was, it must have been deliberate, the feel of the cinematography is the feel of press cameras at that time.

01:29:21.498 --> 01:29:21.898
<v SPEAKER_3>Ouija, yes.

01:29:21.898 --> 01:29:24.778
<v SPEAKER_3>Particularly, I'm thinking, I was gonna think Ouija.

01:29:25.398 --> 01:29:38.418
<v SPEAKER_3>And so it's a film about these New York papers and the cinematography looks like the press photowork of somebody like Ouija at that time, which I think is great.

01:29:38.418 --> 01:29:45.938
<v SPEAKER_3>It's funny, so much of the film, the exteriors and the interior shots, you know, Wong Howe does deep focus.

01:29:46.258 --> 01:29:48.578
<v SPEAKER_3>You know, he's using this deep focus work.

01:29:48.578 --> 01:29:54.738
<v SPEAKER_3>And it's interesting, do you know what Ouija's, supposedly his saying was about how he photographed?

01:29:54.738 --> 01:29:55.218
<v SPEAKER_2>No.

01:29:55.898 --> 01:29:56.898
<v SPEAKER_3>The secret to his work?

01:29:56.898 --> 01:29:58.038
<v SPEAKER_2>24 millimeter lens.

01:29:58.998 --> 01:30:01.258
<v SPEAKER_3>His saying was F8 and be there.

01:30:01.298 --> 01:30:03.698
<v SPEAKER_2>F8 and be there, yeah, yeah.

01:30:03.698 --> 01:30:06.498
<v SPEAKER_2>Stop it down and get the background.

01:30:06.498 --> 01:30:07.958
<v SPEAKER_2>Yeah.

01:30:07.958 --> 01:30:09.598
<v SPEAKER_3>Yep.

01:30:09.598 --> 01:30:13.298
<v SPEAKER_3>Well, son, it looks like we have to call this game On a Count of Darkness.

01:30:14.518 --> 01:30:15.838
<v SPEAKER_2>Yes, indeed.

01:30:15.838 --> 01:30:16.858
<v SPEAKER_3>Excellent work, FT.

01:30:17.598 --> 01:30:26.418
<v SPEAKER_3>That will be the final quote from The Sweet Smell of Success, the film I can never think of the title of.

01:30:26.418 --> 01:30:29.478
<v SPEAKER_3>I'd like to thank everybody for listening.

01:30:29.478 --> 01:30:39.658
<v SPEAKER_3>If you've enjoyed this podcast, or even if you haven't enjoyed this podcast, please tell a friend about the glories of They Shoot Films.

01:30:40.618 --> 01:30:48.378
<v SPEAKER_3>You might want to say something along the lines of, I'm great, because I just listened to another episode of They Shoot Films.

01:30:48.378 --> 01:30:54.518
<v SPEAKER_3>From California, I'm Ken Mercer saying goodbye to FT Kosempa in the great state of New York.

01:30:54.518 --> 01:30:55.538
<v SPEAKER_3>Have a good one, FT.

01:30:55.538 --> 01:30:56.658
<v SPEAKER_2>You too, Ken.

01:30:56.658 --> 01:30:57.798
<v SPEAKER_2>Be well.

01:31:00.978 --> 01:31:09.478
<v SPEAKER_2>They Shoot Films is a production of Film Symposium West, produced by Anne-Marie De Palma, studio announcer Roy Blumenthal.